Brian Regan

"It feels like the people that have helped push me along have always been other comedians. The entertainment media in general, I always feel like they just kinda had a blind eye towards me."

– Brian Regan

Guy MacPherson: Hello, Brian.
Brian Regan: How are you?

GM: Good thanks, how are you?
BR: I'm great. Our next interview in a series of a few, so thank you.

GM: And a podcast.
BR: Yes, and a podcast, which I enjoyed doing with you.

GM: Thank you for that.
BR: Yeah, absolutely.

GM: I was just thinking how for years and years I knew of you but you never played Vancouver. And now you're a regular.
BR: Yeah. I was looking at this little list here. I've done 2007, 2010, 2012, and 2013. I'm liking including the Canadian experience in my shows. Vancouver's a fun place.

GM: What do you mean by the experience? Onstage experience? Are we that different?
BR: I mean the onstage experience. I was thinking about how you can make all kinds of metaphors about comedy but one is I like when the comedian builds half the bridge and the audience builds the other half of the bridge. I always find Canadian audiences are very, very willing to do their part of the construction work, you know? They build their half of the bridge. Sometimes they'll build even more than half. And it's nice. That little meeting point in the middle is the laughter. American audiences, as much as I love them, sometimes they're not as willing to build their half of the bridge. They're like, 'We're sitting here and you complete the entire span until reaches us.' So it's fun to be on stage and feel like, wow, the other half is working.

GM: It's because we all wear work boots. Part of you becoming a regular here is that comedy's really opened up in the last however many years, where we get so many more touring comics and it's more in our consciousness. Do you find that?
BR: Well, comedy's this ever-evolving thing. What's interesting lately is it can take so many different forms now. With the internet, it's not confined. It seemed to be with standup comedy, you were either on stage as a standup comedian or you would get a sitcom. Those were your two outlets that were available to you. Now you have podcasts and Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee and YouTube clips and little sketches. There's all different kinds of ways to be funny. I think it's kinda opening up the game a bit.

GM: Yeah, it used to be just the Evening at the Improv-type shows and other than that just a late night talk show set. That's where we'd see comics.
BR: Even Evening at the Improv was still standup comedy. It was standup comedians on stage doing standup comedy. I love standup comedy. It isn't like I want that to go away but it's interesting to see that different things have morphed off from it, you know?

GM: You recently did your 26th Letterman. Do you do the other talk shows, too, or are you exclusive to Dave?
BR: Well, I just did the 27th about a month ago. That show has been very kind to me over the years. I feel like they like what I do or else they just keep giving me more and more opportunities to finally make it right, I don't know. It isn't that I don't want to do other shows; it's just I'm on Letterman, like, every nine months. I've got a good thing there so I kind of stay in that track lately.

GM: Is it hard to pick four minutes, or however long you get on a late night set, and to go in cold like that?
BR: It's definitely challenging. It's thrilling, but it's also very challenging. When I'm performing out on the road, I have the luxury of performing in front of a bunch of people who are holding a ticket that says Brian Regan on it, you know? They already know what I do or else friends have said, 'Hey, you gotta go check this guy out. He's kinda funny.' But when you go to do Letterman, or something like that, those people aren't sitting in that audience to see me. They're there to watch Dave Letterman and a TV taping and you just happen to be on it. And they might know who you are or they probably don't know who you are. At least me. So I have to go out there and very, very quickly, but without looking like I'm being frenetic, establish who I am, establish a theme, get a roll going, and be done in four-and-a-half minutes. It's a lot more challenging than people might think because you're trying to make it look effortless when it's anything but.

GM: In a theatre show, you can really ease your way into a bit or get to know the audience a bit.
BR: Yeah. And that's part of the fun in it, seeing how quickly you can get people hooked in and that sort of thing. I remember years ago, before I even did a TV taping... I'm pouring coffee so if I'm slowing down, it's because I'm not capable of talking and pouring coffee simultaneously... Alright, anyway, coffee's poured. I can get back to my normal speech... So I remember hearing a comedian talking about doing The Tonight Show and he said it's very important to expect the first joke to not work. He said the first joke is going to be a foul ball and if you expect it to be a foul ball, you're in much better shape than if you're expecting it to get a good laugh. Because if you're expecting it to get a good laugh, and then it doesn't, it can throw you. And I'm glad I heard that years ago. So I approach every set that way. So when I go out there, it feels comforting to already giving yourself a foul ball.

GM: That's a good life lesson, too. Keep your expectations low.
BR: Yeah. And then when you go out there and the first joke doesn't get a good laugh, you go, 'Well, this is what I was expecting all along.' And if it does get a good laugh, well then that's even better.

GM: Bonus. Do you remember who said that?
BR: I don't want to attribute it to the wrong person. I have a feeling that it was David Sayh but I'm not a hundred percent sure.

"I love the standup comedy world and I've kind of resigned myself over the years to the fact that, for whatever reason, it's probably not going to branch out beyond standup comedy."

– Brian Regan

GM: Now you're a master thespian. Congratulations.
BR: (laughs) Yeah, these last couple of months – I mean, I did the thing a year ago – but the last couple of months since it's been in the process of coming out and the premiere have been so strange and so weird and so different for me. But I'm enjoying the heck out of it. It's a completely new experience. It's just weird the way it's all shaken out, you know? I mean, I went from two months ago thinking I was cut out of a movie to realizing not only am I in the movie, they're using me in the trailer and they're using me in the ads and I'm getting some pretty decent buzz about it. I'm like, wow... It's just really fun.

GM: I haven't seen it, but I did see the trailer. You joked on Letterman that that's basically the whole thing. How much are you really in the movie?
BR: It's just that scene but they've broken it into a couple of parts. It's kind of hard to explain. Chris Rock's character is a comedian-slash-actor. He's going around doing promo. He's going around doing radio interviews. I play a radio engineer who's asking him to do a liner and when he does it, I just keep telling him to try to make it a little bit funnier. I know what that's like. I can relate to that. So he gets increasingly upset with me. So we start with that, and then in the scene he goes and does all these other interviews, and then they concluded by coming back to me, like as a callback, continuing with getting him upset about me telling him to try to make it funnier. It was a very fun scene to do. I just could relate when I read the script. Like I know this guy inside and out because I've lived it, you know? It was fun to do.

GM: You did it really well. It was believable and funny.
BR: Thank you. I appreciate it. I'm not patting myself on the back because I'm not an actor. I don't know anything about that world. I didn't even feel like I was acting. I just felt like I've experienced this guy so many times in these radio stations, I know what the vibe is. So I felt I just had to be that. Be the guy that I would be upset at. So I just became that.

GM: Was that your first movie?
BR: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

GM: How great is it that it was with Chris Rock and it's getting all this buzz? Your first movie could easily have been some dud.
BR: Yeah. It's weird. I've been at this for years. I love the standup comedy world and I've kind of resigned myself over the years to the fact that, for whatever reason, it's probably not going to branch out beyond standup comedy. But the planets just lined up. Chris Rock came and saw my show. I was performing at a theatre in New Jersey and I was told he was in the audience. Then afterwards he came back and said hello. He didn't say anything about a movie. Then a few weeks later I get this call that they want me for a scene in a movie that he's making. I'm like, whoa, okay. Next thing I know, I'm in New York and I'm doing this scene. And it was about a year after that that the thing finally started coming out. And I swear I thought I was cut from the movie because I went to that imdb thing and it says 'Cast'. Then it says 'Full Cast'. So I click on Full Cast and it says, like, 37 names or something. I scroll down and I'm not in there! (laughs) And I'm like, 'Oh, man.' But then it just turned out there was a goof-up on imdb, I guess.

GM: Again, you keep your expectations low and then you're surprised.
BR: (laughs) Yeah.

GM: When you knew he was in your audience, did it affect you at all?
BR: Nah. I've had so many situations where there were important people or auditions or family members that you learn not to let that affect your show one way or another. I mean, I was honoured that he was there but I don't think it affected my show any.

GM: Is this going to lead to more acting?
BR: No, no. Getting back to the keeping expectations low, nothing I've ever done has led to anything! (laughs) I mean, beyond what it is. I do the Letterman spots. I never get a phone call the next day from NBC or CBS. I have my standup comedy following and that's great and all that sort of thing. So I'm not expecting Steven Spielberg to see this and give me a call. Because that kind of thing just doesn't happen my way.

GM: You've had such integrity with standup. Your goal is to be the best you can be at that and then other things fall into place. Sometimes comics that maybe aren't as committed to the craft branch off and do these other things and they're sort of half-assed at everything.
BR: I don't want to be derogatory about somebody else. Standup to me is my thing. If something were to happen from this, I'd be open to it but I certainly don't expect it.

GM: I see you've joined the fraternity of arena comics.
BR: I have this huge following in the Mormon community so I did the Energy Solutions Arena, which is where the Utah Jazz plays. I did two shows there. Two nights, Friday and Saturday, a few months back. Man, that was other-worldly. That was just something else. It was a blast and an honour to have that size of an audience come out to see what you want to do, so that was pretty cool.

GM: Is it like what you told me about occasionally getting a private jet and making you realize the regular plane is like taking the bus?
BR: That would be a weird thing to get used to and feel like you can't do anything less than an arena. I knew going in that that was going to be an unusual experience. I forget the next show but I did a show soon after that in front of... It was a smaller town with a much smaller kinda theatre and I remember thinking, 'This is weird. I'm in a theatre and I feel like it's tiny.' I mean, I would never tell that audience that because you want to give your all no matter who you're performing in front of. But it was just weird size-wise. It was like, 'What has happened to my career where I feel like this is small?'

GM: Did you have to change anything you do for the arena? Or back to the theatres?
BR: I just had to be cognizant of sight lines. I was on the big screen and I realized a lot of people that are higher up are probably watching that even more so than me on the stage. So I wanted to be aware of that and also make sure I'm walking around enough and facing different directions. It's challenging playing quote "in the round" even though it was a big square stage, because a lot of my jokes are visual and they're like a little play. It's me and another character and sometimes within a joke I'm setting up a situation. Like, it might be me talking to a person at a check-in desk at a hotel or something like that. And once you've created this visual, even though there's literally not a desk there but you're suggesting it, in the middle of a bit you have to be careful and go, 'If I turn now so more people can see me, have I just blown the visual?' You know what I mean? So all those kinds of things are going on in your head while you're on stage going, 'Should I commit to not turning for this entire bit because I've established a visual here? Or is the bit too long and if I don't turn then people are going to feel like they're left out?' You're constantly making decisions while you're on stage.

GM: So you were in the middle. I've seen arena shows where it was at one end and they just took out the seats behind the stage.
BR: Yeah, I've done those, too. I did one at a college and it was in the basketball arena. My stage was where the backboard and net would be and facing away from the court so it was like maybe a third of the basketball audience. Two-thirds of it was just dark seats. This was when Dane Cook was hot. I walked into the theatre and the college kid who was in on the show goes, 'You know, we had Dane Cook in here a couple months ago.' And I say, 'Oh, that's cool.' And he said, 'Yeah, when his tickets went on sale, all of these seats' – and he pointed to the ones for my show – 'they all went in about ten minutes so we had to move the stage to halfcourt. And then those all sold out in another ten minutes so we had to move the stage all the way back here. So he ended up selling out the whole thing.' And I was like, 'Oh. Okay.' (laughs) But for me it's fine right where it is, huh? It was funny because I knew it didn't even dawn on him that this might not be something I'd interested in hearing at the time. Nothing against Dane Cook. I'm happy for his success. But it was just weird that he was matter-of-factly telling me that the guy drew five times as much as I did!

GM: Last time you were here, you had done the Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee episode. We talked a bit about it. But I didn't realize when you shot yours, none of them had been released yet so you didn't know how to approach it.
BR: Correct.

GM: So now that you've seen them, would you have done anything differently?
BR: I don't know. I don't know. That's a good question. I'm kinda glad that I hadn't seen any. I had no choice but to just go, 'I'm going to make this a conversation. Let him lead the way and I'll just follow.' It's hard to say how it would have affected me if I had seen some. Maybe I would have felt a little more performance-oriented. The thing I liked about it was that we taped for like four hours and they only used 12 minutes. There was plenty of stuff that wasn't funny. I didn't feel any pressure. It was just two guys hanging out and they kinda clip it down to the funnier moments.

GM: Did you see his hour-long interview with David Letterman?
BR: No.

GM: It's online. It wasn't on Letterman's show. Letterman interviewed him specifically about Comedians in Cars. He talked about how they film for hours. They showed some raw footage and all these dull moments. Then they showed the edited version. It was great to see.
BR: It was a lot of fun to do. What's weird is when you're in the car and you're just talking. I never forgot that we were being filmed but you get kinda lulled into you're just having a conversation with a friend. Then you're at a red light and a van pulls up with a 30-guy film crew hanging out of the side of the van! And you're like, 'Oh, I forgot about that for a moment.' You realize, oh, this is all being filmed! Strange.

GM: Did it get a great reaction for you?
BR: Yeah, I've gotten some nice comments about that. It was a very cool thing for me. It feels like the people that have helped push me along have always been other comedians. The entertainment media in general, I always feel like they just kinda had a blind eye towards me.

GM: Not me.
BR: No, you've been great. There've been a handful of people who've been great and I appreciate it. But just in general I always felt like nobody seems to care, you know? But then when you have somebody like Seinfeld basically patting you on the back – I mean, I was in his first group that he did and who knew if there was ever going to be a second group? He only did like ten comedians. The fact that he picked me for that was a huge honour. And I think that's the kind of thing that makes people take notice. Like, 'Well, Seinfeld likes the guy; maybe we should give him another look.' And the same thing with the Chris Rock movie. It was another comedian who's putting me in a movie.

GM: A really well-respected comedian.
BR: Yeah. These people like what I do. They're the ones that have kind of helped me make some headway where I might not have otherwise been able to make headway.

GM: It's kind of like high school. When the cool kids tell other people you're funny, then everyone starts thinking that way.
BR: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, he's making the football players laugh. Yeah, I think there's an aspect to that. So I have such a strong kinship, feeling – I don't know if that's grammatically correct – I like being around comedians. Seinfeld recently was talking about that. I don't know if you saw his Brian Williams interview. Did you see that?

GM: No, I didn't.
BR: He said that he thinks he's on the autism spectrum.

GM: I read that, yeah.
BR: And he said one of the reasons is because of this social awkwardness that he has. He says he only feels comfortable around comedians. I don't take it that far. I mean, I am capable of being comfortable around other people, but I do have a strong comfortability around other comedians because I feel like it's something we all share. It's kind of hard to put into words.

GM: You have a shorthand with each other. You know how their brains are going to react to what you're saying. They're not going to think you're strange.
BR: And also what's weird is, it's comfortable being around people that you feel like you don't have to be funny around. Comedians know that comedians are not always funny. So when you're around other comedians, you feel comfortable not being funny. Sometimes if you're in a party situation or somebody just finds out you're a comedian, sometimes that takes a very odd turn where they don't know what to do with you at that moment. They think you're some kind of clown on display and it gets kind of strange.

GM: Or the worst is when they laugh when you're not even being funny because they're expecting you to be funny.
BR: Yeah. I love after a show when people come up and say, 'Where are you tomorrow night?' And you say, 'Uh, tomorrow night I'm in Cincinatti.' And then they laugh for a minute. And you go, 'Wow. I didn't realize that was a joke.' They're so sucked into the cadence from the previous hour they've seen, they just assume you're being funny. 'Yeah, I'm in Cincinatti tomorrow.' 'Ha ha ha! Cincinatti!'

GM: And you're thinking, 'I should write that down!'
BR: Yeah, I didn't realize that was a big funny joke.

GM: Are you doing 100 weeks a year? No, wait. There aren't 100 weeks in a year.
BR: (laughs) Well, I'm that good when I do 100 weeks of comedy in a 52-week year.

GM: You have a Gallagher 2 type of situation maybe.
BR: (laughs) No, I do about 100 shows a year.

GM: That's what I meant. Over how many weeks?
BR: I try to work half the weekends of the year. I do 26 weekends out of 52, give or take. And then I do four shows each weekend, Thursday through Sunday.

GM: So after your show here, you're jetting off to the next place.
BR: We were just trying to do travel. That's going to be a very strange week. I'm in Eugene, Oregon, Thursday. Vancouver Friday. Then we gotta get to Anchorage for Saturday. And then back to Edmonton for Sunday. And it's proving to be much easier to write on a calendar than it is to actually book travel for.

GM: Really? It seems logical. The last time you were here, you played Alaska the next night, too.
BR: Yeah, but that concluded the week. Trying to get back and do a show in Edmonton on that Sunday, we're trying to figure it out. It's going to require some flights that are hopefully not delayed.

GM: Good luck with that.
BR: Yeah, thank you.

GM: And great, as always, talking to you.
BR: I appreciate it. And I appreciate the support you've given me over the years. It really means a lot to me. So thank you.

Lachlan Patterson

"Early on in life I realized I gotta figure out what I want to do. I started having all these little ideas of what I want to do. I really didn't like working for a living. So the idea of standup comedy was in my head. People always said, You should be a standup comedian. I always rolled my eyes. I thought they were just complimenting how funny I was. But I figured let's try it."

– Lachlan Patterson

Guy MacPherson: Lachlan, it's Guy.
Lachlan Patterson: Hey, buddy, how's it going?

GM: I'm calling from my landline, in case you didn't recognize it.
LP: It sounds like a landline.

GM: Yeah, it sounds clear, right?
LP: Well, I'm on a speaker phone, right?

GM: Yeah, that's true. I have to record it, you know.
LP: I can tell you're, like, in an office and it's cold and there's not much on the walls. Am I right?

GM: I'm at a dining room table, I'm looking at a Christmas tree, there's stuff on the walls.
LP: (laughs)

GM: Where are you?
LP: I'm in a garage in Venice, California. I turned my garage into my own little sort of haven.

GM: Like Marc Maron.
LP: Yeah. I have a garage and it was full of stuff. I ended up building a loft so I could turn this into a living space and I have a podcast now that I record in here. Anytime I have to do something creative where I need to be alone, I come in here.

GM: What's the podcast?
LP: It's called The Kooks of Comedy. It's a surfing comedy podcast. I moved to Venice and there were surfboards in my place. I picked one up and started learning and I fell in love. It's my other favourite thing.

GM: I can see you as a surfer.
LP: Yeah? I'm a little tall but I'm learning.

GM: Do you do the podcast with anyone?
LP: Yeah, I do it with my friend from New York who's a comedian and a surfer as well. We started surfing together and doing comedy and we were like, Let's create a podcast that nobody will ever listen to.

GM: It takes some time. Who is it?
LP: His name's Joe Praino. He's a good dude. He's a younger comedian than me, but we make a good pair.

GM: Is it always about surfing?
LP: You know, we make sure that we try to get guests who are surfers. In fact, I don't think we've had a non-surfing guest. Maybe one. We usually split the show into half-comedy, half-surfing. But anyone can listen to it and understand it. It's just a lot of times we'll go off on a rant about the ocean or something. We have listeners all over the country that are nowhere near any ocean and they seem to love it.

GM: You could have Tim Reikert on.
LP: I'd love to have Tim on. I've reached out to Tim. We've surfed up in Tofino together and I said any time you want to come down here, I gotta place for you. And he's like, I don't get out of here. He likes where he lives and he should. It's amazing up there.

GM: I know he surfs almost every day.
LP: Yeah, Tofino's got Hawaii-like breaks up there. It's beautiful. I want to go back for sure.

GM: I saw you on Last Comic Standing, except for the final episode and here's why: I thought you were the best...
LP: Oh, thanks Guy.

GM: ... and I PVR'd them all. Of course, you can't avoid the outcome because every website out there tells you the winner. So I knew you didn't win. I still have the last episode on the TV and I haven't watched it.
LP: Thanks, man. When someone says they haven't watched a show, it's usually an insult. But thanks, buddy. I hope you do watch it because I had my best set of the whole show. Our final set, I came out and just kinda had this feeling of let's just give it everything. And then when it was a tie, and we had to go back into our dressing rooms and come out again to do another set, I wasn't really prepared for that so I had to kind of put a set together in my dressing room. I think if I had more time, I would have been able to give Rod a run for his money.

GM: So that was in the final where it was a tie?
LP: Yeah.

GM: Spoiler alert.
LP: Spoiler alert three months later.

GM: The week before, is that the one where Roseanne was iffy on you?
LP: Yeah. The show doesn't show you going through week. That's one day of the week and that particular week I was just having a rough week.

GM: I don't know, I thought you had the best set. I thought it was really good.
LP: Thanks, man. I mean, you know my style is a little more laid back and that doesn't really lend itself to a competition. So the final set I said, Screw that, man, just give them what they want. I walked out there and if you watch it, you can see the difference.

GM: I liked Rod Man a lot. But over time I felt, okay, I get what he does.
LP: What?

GM: It's always the same kind of thing: He has these long run-on sentences where he emphasizes odd words and it's really funny to listen to. But it's always just that style rather than the jokes that are funny. Sometimes his jokes are great – like I say, I liked him – but sometimes he would just get laughs based on the way he talks.
LP: You've been studying comedy for a long time. You're a connoisseur of comedy. I do the comedy I do because it's my favourite kind of comedy to listen to. I grew up listening to guys like Norm Macdonald. Clever, almost silly. I do like it when comedians get really quote "real" but I'm a sucker for a silly joke. It just gets me unexpectedly.

GM: So the show did well for your career, I have to assume. Did you notice a big difference after it? Or during it?
LP: It's funny, I was in Edmonton during the first weekend that it came out. I was replacing somebody. I was doing a Thursday thru Saturday, or a Thursday thru Sunday. They never took his name off the sign the whole week! I remember two people came up and said they watched me and they think I'm really funny. And I was like, Okay, so the show doesn't really... No one cares. That's what I thought. And now, when the show ended, I had to fly. I was flying actually while the show was on to Nashville. When I got on stage the next day after the show ended, I walked out to a standing ovation. People brought me flowers. There was definitely a huge difference. People like me. (laughs)

GM: Name recognition.
LP: It's funny, they still screw up my name on all my radio interviews, but I guess that's not their fault. My dad named me this.

GM: Obviously you got some cash out of it. Is that how you have a place with a garage or did you have that before?
LP: I've always had this place. I got a really sweet deal. It's very rare to get a garage in LA. But so far the landlord hasn't raised a stink. I've actually converted it, put a loft in it, and there are surfboards hanging on the walls. I find things in alleys, like furniture, and I've decorated it with really cool furniture that I've found in the alleys. Not shitty couches and stuff. Really cool wooden furniture. And I've a Craftsman tool box. One of those steel tool boxes. I put all my dvd's in it and all sorts of stuff. I've got a mid-century coffee table. I collect stuff from the alleys.

GM: That's Hollywood right there: "That guy from Last Comic Standing is rooting through our stuff in the alley!"
LP: I don't go inside the garbage cans, that's my rule. But if something's just sitting out there, I'll kick it, see if it withstands a kick.

GM: Are you touring more? Getting better venues?
LP: The contract had us obligated to do a tour, which was 55 cities in 65 days. That was theatres of about 2500 seats.

GM: How many of the contestants were on it?
LP: Five. The top five. That was wonderful to be able to perform in theatres and experience that dynamic of people who literally are staring at you and the stage is huge and four levels and two spotlight guys. The highest level of performing, I think, is theatres. I guess stadiums would be bigger. But I'd always wanted to perform in a theatre. I do miss clubs. I really love doing clubs, which I'm doing now. And I'm pretty much booked through till the end of next year.

GM: Almost every weekend?
LP: Pretty much almost every weekend. It's exhausting. It sounds really exhausting. I'm trying to keep optimistic because I won't be surfing as much as wished I was. And I'm going to try to sneak some Canadian dates in there. When there is a week off, I'm going to try to get up to Vancouver or Toronto, Calgary and Edmonton. I was just in Edmonton last week. Trying to get a few Canadian dates in there, too.

GM: As you should.
LP: Yeah. My agency's goal is to really keep me down here. I try to explain to them, Look, I grew up in Canada, that's where I learned, I gotta get back to my country. It's my country. They don't get that down here.

GM: Are you doing any acting work?
LP: Yeah, I'm actually developing a show right now. That's as far as I want to say about it because it could go horribly wrong. But I am currently working with a production company in developing a show and I'm really excited about it. It's my first ever.

GM: Is it an acting show or more of a reality thing?
LP: I would be acting, for sure. I've always wanted to dip my feet in the acting business. I've been given a few opportunities down here with guys like Daniel Tosh and Jim Jefferies who've put me on their shows and given me just a little glimpse into what it would be like to have my own show and I liked it. And obviously it would keep me here in LA, which also would be nice so I could surf.

GM: You did their two TV shows. Did that come after Last Comic?
LP: No, that came before. Tosh put me in a couple of his sketches and Jim put me in a few episodes of his FX show Legit, which I don't think they actually really got up there. It didn't air up there.

GM: I think it's on Netflix.
LP: Yeah, it's on Netflix. Like standup comedy, I've always been really critical of my performances so I haven't really seen those episodes. But I'm just happy that comedians have given me an opportunity. In developing my show, the first thing I said was I want to employ my comedian posse, my crew of comedians. I want to make sure that my show employs a lot of comedians that I like.

GM: You also did The Tonight Show with Jay Leno.
LP: I did. I did The Tonight Show in 2010. I was actually proud of that. I was very proud of my performance. I got a little love from that. Nothing like what I got from Last Comic Standing. I tried to get back on and Jay had pretty much retired and all the staff had found other jobs by the time I was ready to get on again. Back to the grind. I actually am going to be doing The Late Late Show on January 5th.

GM: With the new host?
LP: With a new host.

GM: Who's the new host?
LP: A guy named James Corden but they're going to do interim hosts and I'm doing the first interim which will be Drew Carey. I'm really excited about that because I have worked with him before and I think he's just great.

GM: Do you remember when you were back in town and you were in a real down period in your life? You got booted back to Canada for a few weeks.
LP: Yeah, I do remember. It was horrible.

GM: You've come so far from that. At the time, what were you thinking?
LP: That was really tough. I had to get a job landscaping. I remember plucking weeds on the Olympic ring flowers at the airport. I had done television appearances and I really felt my comedy was going to carry me and I had a wake-up call. I was also mad at myself for letting it happen. I know the government was constantly changing their visa requirements and what they were asking of me was just unreasonable. I didn't give up but I think my motivation to get back down and really push myself had dropped. Ugh. I ended up getting the swine flu. Remember that? And when you have a landscaping job and you get the flu, you're just fired. They just need to replace you. If you can't show up, we have to replace you. It's not like a career where you get sick days. So I didn't have a job. I was living on my cousin's couch. I was just kind of piecing together some credentials to try to get back down to the United States. I applied for a three-year visa and they sent me a 21-day visa. I talked to my lawyer and she was like, There's not much we can do because if we complain that'll put a red flag on you and that could make it tougher in the future. So I had to reapply for another visa and it got very expensive very fast. That was shitty. I'm not going to lie to you, that was a pretty shitty point in my life.

GM: Because it cost so much to apply each time, were you ever wondering if it was even worth it?
LP: I'm sure. I was probably thinking can I just stay in Canada and start over again? But I had tasted the good life a little bit in comedy where I'd worked with all these great names. I really saw what I wanted and my future really was and doing American television at the time, so I just wasn't happy. I had toured across Canada and there wasn't a lot of opportunity. I'd lived in Canada and performed in Canada and I found the only way to survive as a comedian in Canada was to have a day job. There's very few comedians in Canada who are able to support themselves on standup comedy alone. So it was almost a tougher life to stay in Canada.

GM: Was that 2010?
LP: I came back in 2010, that's right.

GM: How long did you have to stay?
LP: Well, I came back in 2009 and I stayed for six months but I thought I was going to be there just for a month. So I didn't really book anything just thinking I was going to come back. I had a bunch of gigs in the United States. So when it didn't come through, not only did I have to cancel all my gigs in the United States, I couldn't get work in Canada. All the clubs were already booked. And it was the summer so you know it's just much slower. There just was no work for me so I had to get a day job.

GM: I remember talking with you at the comedy festival and you finally said, "Let's go up and spin this wheel." WestJet had a prize wheel.
LP: Right!

GM: You went first and got the hand sanitizer. Then I got the trip anywhere WestJet flies.
LP: Oh my God, yeah.

GM: And I thought I should give this to Lachlan. But I didn't.
LP: No, you didn't. I appreciate that you didn't. I don't need your sympathy. I was going to be fine.

GM: But you should also appreciate that I entertained the thought.
LP: Did you take that trip yet?

GM: Yeah. We went to Disneyland. I had to buy two other seats.
LP: WestJet was smart. They had you book two more flights probably at full price.

GM: You went to West Van high school, right?
LP: I did. I went to Prince of Wales and then we moved to the North Shore and I went to West Van high.

GM: Were you thinking of comedy then? You said you tried it at 19.
LP: Early on in life I realized I gotta figure out what I want to do. I started having all these little ideas of what I want to do. I really didn't like working for a living. So the idea of standup comedy was in my head. People always said, You should be a standup comedian. I always rolled my eyes. I thought they were just complimenting how funny I was. But I figured let's try it. And at 19 I gave it a shot. I invited everyone I knew to the show and they all laughed. So I thought I had just conquered standup comedy. And I stopped doing it. I went back to my job working at Home Hardware. Everyone at Home Hardware came to the show and I noticed over the next couple of years that nobody was mentioning that show and how funny I was. I woke up to the fact that, hey, you weren't funny. They were laughing at you. It took a while for my ego to let that soak in. I probably got mad that I let myself think something that could have been so off. I needed to prove that I was right and they were wrong. I went to Langara and I was taking all sorts of courses to do something stupid that I didn't want to do, and I saw these night school classes. My dad always put me in night school classes as a kid and I found them much more fun so I saw this one for standup comedy and I took it. I've said this before: I performed in front of the class and when I sat down people were coming up to me after class and going how did you do that? So I think that's when I knew maybe this is what I'm supposed to do.

GM: Was that a David Granirer class?
LP: Yeah, it was a David Granirer class for sure. It was one of his first, if not the first one he ever taught, back in, like, '96 maybe.

GM: Were you at New Faces in Montreal?
LP: Yeah, in 2003 I went to New Faces. But I wasn't ready. I'm the first to admit it. I was green. Like most people at New Faces, they throw you on the grill and hope that you cook. But if you don't, that's it for you, kid. And you're left to deal with the industry thinking you're terrible.

GM: I saw you then.
LP: You did?

GM: I didn't know you were from Vancouver. I think it was at the artists vs industry basketball game where you told me you were from Vancouver. Yeah, I didn't think you did very well.
LP: You know, I still have the tape. I should have a look at it
just to punish myself.

GM: I have no memories of it other than that. You see all these new faces and you don't know who they are. Then you moved back to Vancouver and started working on it, then you became really good.
LP: Even when I moved back to Vancouver, I struggled to get work. The clubs wouldn't book me. The Yuk Yuk's wouldn't book me. I couldn't get any work so I ended up getting a day job as a waiter at the Mill Bistro there. I couldn't even get their amateur night. And then one day I called and the manager wouldn't speak to me so I just said, 'Can you tell him that if he puts me on, I'll bring like 20 people?' She left me on hold then she came back and she was like, 'Okay, you're going to go on Wednesday.' I think I brought 40 people. I performed and those people knew my struggle because they knew I was a comedian; they saw me do these tiny little coffee shops but they knew the club wasn't booking me. So when they came, they laughed and screamed and really supported me and the whole crowd got on fire. I did jokes about working at that restaurant. It was such a contagious laugh that the club manager said okay, I'll bring you in for a couple days. It was really slow. It was very slow going. I really thought it would be quicker given that I'd been to the Montreal Comedy Festival and I'd put in six years. But a lot of people up there didn't think that that counts for anything. I've always believed in myself more than everyone else. You're supposed to. So I kept my mouth shut as best I could and worked. I've always been better at struggling. It pushes me. To be honest, I'm glad I didn't win that contest. I think I still might have a little underdog status and I work better from there. You know, some racers work better from the back. They don't like the lead. I think I'd be one of those.

GM: Well I haven't heard from Rod Man since he won.
LP: (laughs) We all have our own journey. I really want to be a great comedian. I think if your intentions are pure in comedy and you just want to be great, then who cares if it takes you longer? I think if you just want to be great, if your intentions are pure, then you'll do well. As soon as the show ended, I got rid of that material and I started fresh. I've written a whole new 45 and I'm adding to it every day. This Playhouse show, I'm hoping to give the audience a completely new set that they haven't seen before.

GM: I remember going down to LA and seeing you headline at the Improv.
LP: Oh, right, dude, yeah!

GM: You were on it, Toby Hargrave was on it, Alex Nussbaum was on it. Peter Kelamis was in the audience. I felt like I never left home.
LP: I did a Canada Day show and it was all Canadians. It was pretty funny. Yeah, that was a coincidence because it's rare that I run into those guys anymore. It was so cool, though. But they'll be back in February. All the Canadians come down to visit.

GM: You say you've written new material.
LP: I have, yeah. I'm excited about it. A lot of people want to hear all the stuff from the show. I should probably put an album together of that stuff. Someone told me I should put an album together even if I don't want to do that stuff. I think I should do that just because a lot of it can't be found anywhere. I loved that material. Those were my favourite jokes. But all my favourites, as soon as they released an album, they moved on. I've never really done that and I really want to do that. I've never enjoyed telling jokes that I knew the audience already knew. It doesn't feel as rewarding as telling something that you know they've never heard. I'm going to release a comedy special next year. If people don't come to see me live, I will have a comedy special.

GM: You're here two days after Christmas. I assume you're in town for your family Christmas.
LP: Yeah, I'm going to visit my family. They're on Pender Island so I'm going to go check them out there.

GM: How did you arrive at the Playhouse?
LP: I told my agent I want to work Vancouver; I gotta do it before the end of the year. He was like, 'I got all these other dates; I got all this other stuff.' And I'm like, 'It's just something I have to do. I have to go home and perform.' And he was like, 'Okay.' And he got all these different theatres rounded up and all these different clubs and he sent them to me and he's like, 'These are the different places, these are the numbers, these are the dates.' I looked at all the seating maps and the staff and everything. I just measured it out and the Playhouse just seemed to be the perfect moment. December 27th just seemed perfect to me. It's a Saturday, it's after Boxing Day. I feel it's a weekend when families are home. Everyone was saying, 'I don't know. The 27th is a tough day because it's just right after Christmas.' And I said, 'Well, in Canada, the day after Boxing Day is different. It's definitely more of a go-out day.' And I'm really hoping to get a good crowd.

GM: Will you have other openers?
LP: I don't think so. I think I'm just going to go out and do my thing. There's a lot of great comedians in town and I love working with other comedians. Every time I come back I try to put the list together of people I want or they reach out to me. But I think this one is just going to be me up there.

GM: Is there a name for the show or is it just your name?
LP: It's just Lachlan Patterson. Real simple.

GM: Oh hey, when you were 19, where did you play?
LP: Plaza of Nations.

GM: Oh, the old Yuk Yuk's?
LP: Yeah. It was an amateur night and Tom Staid headlined. He's a Canadian but he lives in England now. Very funny.

GM: Have you done England?
LP: I've never done the UK. It sucks but I worked so hard to get here. It's intimidating to do another country. It took me so long to just get here and you're asking me to go over there. I'd love to. I'd love to go to the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. And know so many comedians and Canadians over there and I hang out with them a lot down in LA. Jason Whitehead's living down in LA as well. I'd love to go over there. I'm just really focussed on what I'm doing down in LA right now.

GM: I know Glenn Wool does both.
LP: Yeah, I see Glenn every once in a while, too. And Jason Rouse as well is down there.

GM: Glenn just moved back here.
LP: Oh, he did? Oh, cool. Where's Myrehaug?

GM: I think he's over in England. He's doing the Snowed In Tour.
LP: Okay, cool. Oh, that's cool that Glenn Wool's in town. That's great that there's good comedy there.

GM: I don't know if he performs much here. I think he bought a place. He travels the world so he can be based anywhere.
LP: Okay. Lucky guy. Oh, I was in Edmonton doing a corporate and I could hear comedy across the hall from the one I was doing and Tim Nutt was in there doing his thing. It was pretty cool. I ended up going on when he ended and I never actually got to see him or say hi.

GM: Alright.
LP: What do you think? You think you got enough?

GM: I got enough. I got too much.
LP: Thanks, Guy. I appreciate that. I hope I see you.

GM: Are you still playing ball?
LP: No, dude. I ended up just giving up on the injuries. They took a toll on me and I still suffer from a lot of injuries from when I used to play. I have tendinitis in my ankles right now and I stretch every morning and I take pills all night. Surfing is nice because mostly drowning is the only injury. You don't get a lot of joint injuries from surfing. It's really a great sport for that.

GM: It's all or nothing.
LP: Yeah, you're dead or you're going to be great.

Hari Kondabolu

"That's one of the fucked up parts about racism is essentially with whiteness, if you're with somebody and create a child with somebody who's not white, they don't get to be white. It's actually this weird system of privilege which only gives privilege to certain people but also is self-defeating because under your system you get fucked out of existence. That's how that works."

– Hari Kondabolu

Guy MacPherson: Hello, Hari.
Hari Kondabolu: Hey, Guy, how are you?

 GM: Good, how are you?
HK: It's been a while.

GM: When was it? A couple years ago?
HK: Yeah. It's been a while since I've been to the MIX. I think it was a couple years ago. Do you remember, was I writing on the TV show at that point or was it before then?

GM: With W. Kamau Bell?
HK: Yeah, I think I was on the show at that point so it must have been two years ago.

GM: I'm going to look it up... It was 2013 in October.
HK: Oh, last year. Huh. Well, it's good to chat with you again. When I got your message I was excited because it's always nice when you get to talk to someone you've spoken to before. It's a nice way to check in. Like, where were we last time we had a conversation?

GM: We spoke for an hour last time.
HK: Yeah, it was nice. It was really nice.

GM: Where are you now? Physically?
HK: I'm physically at home, at my parents' home in Queens, New York. I live in Brooklyn but for the Thanksgiving holiday, I wanted to be home a bit.

GM: Oh, is that today?
HK: Tomorrow.

GM: We already had ours, you know, Hari.
HK: Oh, when is the Canadian one?

GM: It's in October.
HK: Oh, okay. Same kinda deal?

GM: Yup.
HK: Is it turkey also? Is it the same, like, thing?

GM: Yup, exactly the same except earlier. But it's not as big a deal, I don't think. We don't travel as much to get home to family.
HK: Right. You don't have CFL games on? Like, it's not a big football thing, is it?

GM: That I don't know. It might be, but I have no idea.
HK: It probably isn't then.

GM: From what I understand, the holiday has to do with harvests and because we're colder, our harvest is earlier in the year.
HK: Oh, okay.

GM: It's such a big deal in the States. For everyone to get together, family-wise, and then to do it less than a month later with Christmas, it seems too close together.
HK: Right. It is too close together. It becomes the same meal that you're having a month apart.

GM: Exactly. Anyway, but you're doing well?
HK: I'm well. I'm well. I'm glad the year is winding down. It's been a good year but it's been a really busy year and lots of travelling. I kind of want things to slow down for some stretch before they pick up again.

GM: All standup related business?
HK: I released an album in March called Waiting for 2042 and to support that album, I toured quite a bit. And I did Letterman this year and Conan and Fresh Air with Terry Gross and a bunch of radio things on NPR and I did @midnight a couple of times. And I shot my first movie. It was a nice year but it felt like one thing led to the next thing led to the next thing, which is an incredible privilege where it felt like I never really stopped. It just felt like I spent all this time getting the album ready in editing it and getting the cover art and all the things that go into producing a work. And as soon as it came out, it felt like I never stopped moving. In some ways, it feels like I never stopped moving since the show ended. The show got cancelled about a year ago. And it feels like ever since the show got cancelled, some people asked, 'What are you going to do now?' and I immediately went right to work on the album, finishing the thing I started in the summer. I just pushed on with it all year. That has been the focus of my life.

GM: How many seasons did the show run?
HK: A year and a half. It got cut off midway through the second season.

GM: It's a brutal business.
HK: It's brutal but I learned a ton and I got to write with my friends, and how often do you get to do that where you get to write with people you really love and respect and make something that you're really proud of? It doesn't have a gigantic following but the folks who do love the show, love it a great deal. And that means a lot.

GM: You probably got really busy right after that because in your mind it was a sink-or-swim kinda thing, right?
HK: Probably I needed a break, to be honest with you, but to me, I had this standup album I'd recorded in July and I just couldn't finish it. I just didn't have time. Writing on a TV show really took over my life. Even though it was a dream to release a comedy album. It's something I'd wanted to do since I started performing and finally I had the hour that I was proud of releasing. I just didn't have the time to do it. And when I did have breaks from work, the idea of working on the album seemed so daunting. I'd been waiting to do it, but it immediately gave me something I was excited to do. Maybe it was also a distraction from the fact this thing just ended but it was less of a sink-or-swim feeling. Releasing a comedy album isn't necessarily a big money-making thing. You don't really make a ton of money releasing comedy records. I made the money back, which I'm excited about, but that's not what this was about. I was going to get back on the road to do standup anyway, but I was proud to release a thing that had been a dream.

GM: So the work after you recorded it was just the editing?
HK: Yeah. And editing is a long, painful process. Luckily it's words and not music. Music is obviously considerably harder. I recorded two shows; I didn't do, like, five shows or whatever number that people do. And I didn't want to do a magic bullet show. I feel like you have two shows to draw from so if I stumble one time... If I stumble, it's fine, but if it's such a stumble where you don't know what the joke is anymore, then you have another take to use. But it's also looking between shows and balancing it, finding the right mix. And also having an editor you trust. It was done sometime in late December or mid December and after that it was, when's the best time to release it? We picked a March release date and prepared all the promotional stuff for it. I released it on Kill Rock Stars, which is an indie label that's been releasing comedy over the last year and have done a wonderful job. They released Kurt Braunohler's record and Cameron Esposito's record and they have a few more in the works. It really was a campaign. It felt like I was really trying to support this record. I almost felt like a band supporting a record. That's one benefit of, I think, doing it on a music label is that's what they do. They make campaigns to support records and tours to support records. I really felt I did that this year.

GM: It's like a politician running for office.
HK: I feel like comedy always kinda feels like that, to be honest. You're talking about yourself and how funny you are and you have to impress people. There is an aspect of that. The difference is, I think, there's a bit more honesty on stage. And you know if they like you or not by laughter. Ultimately, you're making the choices you want to make and if they don't like it, they can leave. There are differences but certainly there is some degree of when you're promoting a show, instead of voting, can you show up? Please watch me.

GM: With your background and the social issues you talk about, I could see you in the future running for office.
HK: I don't know. It depends on what the future looks like by the time I get there.

GM: You mean like if nothing else is working?
HK: Well, no. There's an aspect of that. But the things I talk about, whether it's race or anything else, I'm fairly blunt and I don't think a lot of voters with that track record of talking so openly about race and aggressively – it's not like I'm always being diplomatc; I'm being pretty harsh – people might laugh at it but I don't know if they'll vote for that. But if we live in a world in thirty years or whatever where we have a different view of race, maybe a mainstream view of race and racism, and we're in a place where we're really being critical of the world and really looking at injustice, if that's actually a mainstream value, then perhaps I could get elected in a place like Seattle or San Francisco or be a fringe candidate somewhere. That's my political future: the possibility of being a fringe candidate!

GM: Aim high. I know you study at LSE. Do you feel that was wasted or you're doing even more good with your knowledge and degree?
HK: I don't think knowledge can ever be wasted, necessarily. I was enriched. I was forced to study for a year and how often do you get to be analytical as your job for a year of just studying and working and focussing? I think it made my arguments stronger. A lot of my standup feels like little essays. They have writing to prove a point. I think it strengthened that approach. But if you mean as a degree in order to get a job, yes, it was wasted. It's a human rights masters. It's a very specific field. It was mostly sociology and law kind of mixed together for a human rights masters.

GM: Your album is called Waiting for 2042. Do you have hope that we'll get to 2042?
HK: I think it's inevitable. Oh, do you mean do I have hope because I think the earth is not going to last that long? There are days that, yeah, I wonder. And I wonder if that's for the best, to be honest with you. I liked Kurt Vonnegut's approach to it, how living things have to get rid of the things, like with viruses you have to get them out of the body, so the Earth's way of surviving is to get rid of humans. Maybe that is inevitable. But if you mean in terms of racial breakdowns, yeah, of course. First of all, race being an absurd, constructed, human phenomenon to begin with is there. So maybe part of it is we stop giving so much of a shit about it, which might be the harder thing and maybe the least likely. But in terms of demographics, yeah, it's inevitable. With immigration. That's one of the fucked up parts about racism is essentially with whiteness, if you're with somebody and create a child with somebody who's not white, they don't get to be white. It's actually this weird system of privilege which only gives privilege to certain people but also is self-defeating because under your system you get fucked out of existence. That's how that works (laughs). 

GM: That's a choice, too, that they want to make.
HK: What?

GM: To not be white. To embrace the non-whiteness part.
HK: Some of it's not a choice. That's why racism sucks; you don't get to choose what you want to be. If I wanted to say I'm white, for whatever reason, I can't. 'No, you're not white.' Why? 'Because you're not.' Why?

GM: It's not like gender identification, where however you identify yourself, that's okay, even if biologically you're not that.
HK: What is biology?

GM: Well, like if you have a penis and you identify as a woman.
HK: I think the difference with transgender stuff is, that's a construct, too. We know that this will lead to the production of children, but the idea of the constructed 'men are this and women are this' and how you think and how your brain is, that's all constructed. We made that up a long time ago. And it looks different in different cultures. So that part's made up. You can be born and have these parts and be not that. We just assume that dresses and ways of behaviour and nurturing and all that, that's all associated with women but that's what we created. That doesn't mean anything. That's just what we said. That's not an actual thing.

GM: But we name everything.
HK: Some people don't even think that's a real thing, either. The idea of gender in itself is not real. There is no real gender. We have these parts and we decided...

GM: If we all agree that these parts equal this word...
HK: We don't agree, though. We just bought into it. It's like the idea of a social contract with the government. We can talk about Hobbes and Locke as much as we want, but really, I never signed a thing. I never agreed to this.

GM: But you agree that you're a man?
HK: I didn't agree I was a man. At a certain point it was like, alright, yeah, this seems to be working and I feel the way I feel and I associate myself and it comes with cultural things and the way I was wired. But more than wiring, I don't think it was wiring. If someone had told me I was a woman, and I was trained to be a woman, I might just be a woman. But I might also at some point question it, like I don't know if I really feel this way. I don't know how that feels like. I would imagine if I was told I was a woman my whole life, and was raised as a woman who had no parts or had parts, I might question it. Or I might not question it. I don't really know. So I think it's hard for us to know exactly how we would be in that situation. I've had the privilege of everyone saying that I'm right and what I'm doing is proper and this is the way it's supposed to be and it's God's way or it's natural my whole life. I've never been in the other situation. So I don't really know. But I'm not going to say that I'm right because I really don't know I'm right. And to be honest, I don't see it as a right and wrong anymore anyway. I'm questioning all that stuff. I do know that this seems to work for me and I like it. And I'm lucky enough that I'm a man who has the privilege of feeling like this is who I am and that's it.

GM: This is all very philosophical. We've all agreed that what I'm sitting on is called a chair but it doesn't have to be.
HK: It doesn't have to be a chair. We can call it whatever we want to call it. This is the function that it serves.

GM: So you could go through anything and say, well, that's not a car I'm driving, it's just what we call it.
HK: Correct. That is true, but I think the difference when it comes to legislating people, you can't do the same thing because people are living things that must live and be free. And a chair is an inanimate object so how we legislate that is different. We legislate it mostly on how we sit on it. Like if a chair had spikes, we'd say you can't have spikes because it will hurt people. So when it comes to hurting people in society at large, that's a different discussion. It's just constructs. It's about, well, if our constructs are hurting people, and there are children who are not allowed to be themselves. There's a history of this happening for thousands of years and we've just pushed it away, like it's an anamoly, that doesn't happen. Well, it does happen. That's when we have to think, okay, then how do we make our society function so we all have a place in it? It's philosophical, but keep in mind, my comedy's like this!

GM: That's what I love. I could talk to you about anything and you can go on about it.
HK: But that's the thing with comedy, right? I feel like so much of it is about... I mean, you know this from years of watching comedians, there's a contrarian nature that we have. Some of the contrariness, I think, is maybe a childishness of constantly 'No, I don't want to do what you tell me to do.' There's some degree of that. I call that the Sex Pistols route. Then there's also the part that thinks about justice and fairness, which I think is part of comedy because when we deconstruct so much of norms of people and why we do what we do and make jokes about it, you can't help but wonder, 'Wait, it's funny, but why is it that way?' That is weird. And I think that then leads to you questioning fairness, which is what I do. I call that The Clash route. I'm a big believer in The Clash route, about finding those things and putting them out there. Everything does get kind of philosophical with me. Like, definitely on the album there are jokes. There are really clear, hard, this is what a joke looks like. But a lot of it, also, is a person's brain meandering. And the gaps, I feel, are as important as the jokes. The gaps in the laugh actually fill in a lot of things. And I'm very much a big fan of deconstruction. I think we talked about Stewart Lee last time. I think. I'm sure we did. And my love for his work. That definitely informs a lot of the choices I make. I fear silence less than I used to, even though it's still the most frightening thing in comedy is not laughing.

GM: That shows a lot of confidence when a comedian can embrace the silence.
HK: Oh, my God. We talked about him last time, didn't we? I think his work... The things that he does, I just feel that anyone who can be confident enough in their choices and know that it will go somewhere, and even if the people ultimately don't like it, knowing that there are ten people who get it and they get it really hard, and the faith that you'll get everyone back hopefully because he's good enough and he's road-tested, how can you not be in awe of that?

GM: The topic of racism is a big part of your act. This is timely because of the Ferguson verdict. What's your take on that?
HK: I'm still processing it. I mean, it's kind of an absurd thing. They didn't even take it to trial! The bar for a grand jury to go to trial is so low, it's very rare that it doesn't go to trial. And usually it's a quick decision. It takes maybe a few days or weeks. It took a month for them to say no, even though there's so many witnesses. A child is killed, there was lots of bullets, it's clearly controversial and many different opinions it takes, there's enough there to at least warrant a 'how did this happen?'

GM: And then they'd have a verdict either way but at least it would be heard.
HK: At least hear it out! A lot of people asked me if I was really surprised. To be honest, I was surprised. I assumed injustice would continue and the cops would win because the cops always win. But I thought there would be a chance for it to get to a place to have a discussion. I wrote it right after, it's not the funniest thing, but this really isn't about whether this person is guilty or not, the grand jury hearing was about whether a black man's murder is worth further discussion. And in this particular place, no. No, it's not, even with all the different pieces of evidence and all the controversy about the case. And it didn't even go that far. It's so contemptible. I read something yesterday that there was a 'I Support Darren Wilson' t-shirt. People are raising money for the police officer, which is a little shocking. Why were you raising money for him? What does he need the money for right now?

GM: Did he lose his job?
HK: No, not at that point. He had the option of whether to resign or not. He's still technically on the force. So they were raising money for him even though he was still... They were raising money for the bounty that should have been on the kid's head to begin with. That's the logic I have. That must have been what it was. Because why else would you raise money for somebody who didn't have legal fees? It didn't go to trial.

GM: Maybe he needs to buy a new identity and move to another country.
HK: This is all after-the-fact. The interesting thing is the president of one of the charities they gave the money to was the prosecutor of the case, Bob McCulloch.

GM: You glossed over that you made a movie in the past year.
HK: Oh yeah! I was in a film called Five Nights in Main. It's a drama, which is interesting that someone saw my standup act and said, 'This guy should be in a drama.'

GM: But they had a role for a convenience store clerk and you were available.
HK: Right. What I love about it was it was the role of a doctor who's the best friend. The movie's about a guy whose wife died in a car accident and he drives from Atlanta up to Main to see his mother-in-law and come to terms with his loss. He stops in Baltimore to see his best friend along the way and I play the best friend. The best friend who's a doctor who is trying to support his grieving friend. And it was a hard role. It wasn't just comic relief, which was my initial hope. It was really struggling and trying to help a friend who was in a great deal of pain. It's very hard to switch modes. It was an interesting week: I shot the movie, then the next day I was on @midnight, and then the next day I was opening for Kathleen Hanna in Las Angeles at the Troubadour and her band The Julie Ruin. Those three experiences consecutively are so different. I think they very much define my year: it's very broad and exciting. The idea of shooting a movie – it's a drama, David Oyelowo, Dianne Wiest and Rosie Perez are in it; I go from that to the next day and I'm on @midnight with Chris Hardwick with Bridget Everett and Jeff Ross and I'm improvising and I'm making jokes on TV; and then the next day I'm at the Troubadour, the place where John Lennon was thrown out for heckling the Smothers Brothers and I'm opening for the rock band, The Julie Ruin, with Kathleen Hanna, who I respect greatly, who also is on the record label that my album's on. It there were ever four days that represented my whole year, it was that.

GM: Do you know when the movie's coming out?
HK: No. They're in edit mode right now. But David Oyelowe has a film coming out soon called Thelma, where he plays Martin Luther King, so it was kind of an honour to perform with such an accomplished actor. It was also really intimidating because I've never been in a movie other than a shitty Sandra Bullock film, which I try to forget. And here's a bunch of really hard scenes with an actor that really knows what he's doing. It'll probably come out after Thelma, I'd imagine.

GM: Do you feel the doctor role is a stereotype or is that a more positive stereotype?
HK: It wasn't a stereotype in that it was not really what the part was about. It has symbolic value but they didn't play me as just a stereotype. I was a person with a back story and emotions, I was a friend. The doctor part really had almost nothing to do with the role, which was incredible. Because initially, I didn't balk at it but I'm like, I don't know him being a doctor seems kinda right down the middle. Then you read the script and it's not about that. It's not about him being a doctor at all. It's about him being a friend to somebody else. The only role the doctor part plays is that I'm wearing scrubs and I have to go to work, which also has, I think, incredible symbolic value in terms of this guy struggling with the loss of his wife and he's talking to a doctor who's also his best friend. But that's what I love about it is that it's more complicated than what I'm used to. That's what I love about standup is that I get to call the shots. I get to be who I want to be and play who I want to play on stage. When I have to deal with other people giving me parts or asking me to do things, it's other people's visions of me and what I look like. And this was an example where that vision was a complicated person and a human being that has multiple facets. I think that's the least I can ask for, isn't it? The bare minimum. To be a person.

GM: Is your show here part of the support tour for the album? Will it be much of the same material?
HK: There'll be a couple things that are on the album but not really. Since I released the album so long ago at this point, and recorded it so long ago, certainly I've written a ton. So most of it will be stuff that isn't on the record. It kind of is to promote the album. I was going to come up to Vancouver months ago and it didn't work out. I got so many emails and people saying, 'How could you do Portland and Seattle and not stop here?' Even though I had no intention of doing anymore shows, at the end of the year I’m visiting a friend in Seattle and I'm like, 'I need to do a Vancouver show while I'm up here.' The idea of going the whole year without doing a show in Vancouver seemed really wrong. And I was getting so much heat for not going that it seemed like, okay, let's make this happen. The Biltmore Cabaret had that date free and I've heard nothing but great things about the space, so it was perfect. It was fate. I'm excited to finally do this show that I had meant to do all year.

GM: You owe it to us.
HK: Absolutely.

Mark Forward

"In your first five years of standup, you think you're much better than you are. And then another five years go by and you go, oh geez, that was terrible. And then yet another five years go by and you're 15 years in, you're going, oh my God, I was terrible at it for 10 years. But at 10 years, you thought you were at the top of your game."

– Mark Forward

Guy MacPherson: Hello, Mark.
Mark Forward: Hello.

GM: How are you?
MF: I'm good. How are you?

GM: I'm well, thank you.
MF: I apologize that no one got back to you.

GM: These days, there's always a way to find somebody.
MF: We fight for press in this goddamn country, I hate to think that I missed it without even knowing about it!

GM: I kinda left it a little late. Sorry about that.
MF: Oh, no worries. I appreciate you doing it.

GM: You're coming to the MIX. Last time you were at Yuk's, weren't you?
MF: No, the last time I was at the MIX. It was my first time. I think it was last year.

GM: Were you ever with Yuk's?
MF: I was with Yuk's for ten or twelve years. I did do the Vancouver Yuk's when it first opened. I think it was like the second week.

GM: This is me promoting a Canadian comic.
MF: Oh, my God! You did it!

GM: So you've left Mr. D. What was behind that? I think you said on your website it was time to move on.
MF: It was time to move on, yes. Greener pastures and opportunities.

GM: It's too bad because I generally like the show a lot. But there were some characters I didn't like, usually because the actors are overdoing it a bit. But you played it understated and realistic and not broad.
MF: It was weird. He had the most odd life. Everything about him – his upbringing, his parents, his Chinese background, his African-American son – all this stuff could have gone to him being a wacky, wild character. And I didn't want to do that. I thought it was funnier just to play him real. I had a ball playing that character. You don't get to play many great characters like that. But you know, greener pastures, moving on, artistic differences. Whatever words you want to use. (laughs)

GM: You've done some acting over the years. And your stage persona in standup is an understated guy, too.
MF: At times. I think over the hour I play both ends of the spectrum. But yeah, I like to bring it down and I like to take it up. Nobody wants to watch someone scream at them for an hour, and nobody wants to hear someone whisper at them for an hour. I try to make it a show. I try to make it have levels. I came from a theatre background at one point.

GM: What is Joke or Choke?
MF: Joke or Choke was a pilot we did for CTV. Craig Brown and I used to do it live at the Comedy Bar in Toronto. Basically it was comics get a week to learn material on three different topics. And each round I judged who got booted out. I was overly vicious and overly mean because that was just part of the playfulness of the show. And most comics – 99 percent – knew I didn't mean a word I'm saying. Sometimes what I was saying was really truthful and those comics didn't like hearing what I had to say. But I mean, I would never attack someone's act.

GM: So what would you attack?
MF: Well, this wasn't their act, you know what I mean? It was something they wrote in a week. Like, if they were up there doing their act, I would never attack them. I would never attack another comic's act. I used to hate it seeing emcees do it. It makes me cringe. To me, you know what you're signing up for. Nobody was blindsiding you. The comics that took it in stride and had fun with it usually did the best. But they would make an acting choice, too. Pat Thornton was hilarious on that show. He used to try to drive me nuts. And other comics the same. Some would come out and be a totally different comic or a totally different character or give themself a different name. We had so much fun doing it live. Then Insight (*) did a pilot project at the Comedy Bar where people did their pilots live. So if you had a sitcom or a game show... they did a whole week of it and it got picked up to be made. We made two episodes and that was it.

GM: Did it turn out to your liking?
MF: Yeah, I really like it. You can see it on CTV's online web page, ctvextend.

GM: But they didn't want to keep going with it?
MF: It's still up in the air. I think they still have the option to make it so I really don't know what's happening with it.

GM: So the ones who took it personally, did it fracture your relationship?
MF: Anybody we had on the taping of the show was close and great and nobody took it personally and we had a lot of fun. When we used to do the live show, yeah, some people would come in that I barely knew. I don't think they knew what the show was. A couple people stormed back onstage after I kicked them off, screaming at me and crying. Dude, you're never going to make it in standup! All it is is criticism every night!

GM: You guys are a sensitive lot.
MF: We are and we pretend we're not. That's the funniest. We try to act like we're so tough and we know everything. Meanwhile, we're breaking down our home every night.

GM: Have you ever been like that, where somebody says something and you take it the wrong way?
MF: Yeah, early in my career. I would take everything personally. It's so weird, in your first five years of standup, you think you're much better than you are. And then another five years go by and you go, oh geez, that was terrible. And then yet another five years go by and you're 15 years in, you're going, oh my God, I was terrible at it for 10 years. But at 10 years, you thought you were at the top of your game.

GM: Well, you probably were the best you could be at any given point.
MF: Yeah. But the weird thing is we try to convince ourselves that we're better than we really are. But yeah, when I was first starting, I would really take offence if someone said I was terrible. The thing is, they were always right. Whatever they were saying was right. As comics, we'd get our backs up because we're always looking for a fight. We play a lot of Legions.

GM: How long have you been doing it?
MF: This is my 15th year.

GM: So now definitely you are good.
MF: I don't know. I'm trying.

GM: Yeah, we'll see what you say at 20 years.
MF: Yeah, if I'm still alive.

GM: Where were you leading up to standup? What were you doing?
MF: I was doing lunchtime theatre in the basement of the Scotia Bank Plaza in Toronto. We'd do a show at 12:00 and 1:00 and then I would go work in a bank from 2 am to 10 am.

GM: What would you do in a bank at 2 am?
MF: All the business deposits come in. We open them, count them, put them in the computer all night.

GM: So then you'd get off at 10 am and prepare for your theatre.
MF: I wouldn't go home because it was in the basement. So I would go do the show. It was usually a serialized show so after the 1 o'clock performance, we'd rehearse the next week.

GM: Who's going to theatre at noon?
MF: People would bring their lunches down from the business offices. And they'd watch. They'd split up a play into three or four parts so that people would come back. It was just something they could do on their lunch break.

GM: Did you study acting?
MF: I did. I went to Humber for three years when I got out of high school.

GM: But then you needed a job so you got the job in the bank.
MF: Yeah, I needed a job where I could still do what I wanted to do so I took a job in the middle of the night. No one could see me, I never slept. And right after that I got a job at a comedy club at the bar. I was bartending.

GM: And was that your first exposure to standup?
MF: That was my real first exposure to standup. I'd been a huge fan of improv and I used to go to the old Second City. I used to drive from Oakville and watch the free improv set every night and I thought that's the way I was going to go.

GM: Did you ever do improv?
MF: I have, yeah. Second City was very kind to let me get up and do it. It's such a different animal. It's fun to go on stage and be terrified.

GM: That must help your standup, just being in the moment.
MF: Totally. Great standups to me are good actors and good improvisers. Some just have it, but some took it and some didn't, and you can see it.

GM: You retired for a while, didn't you?
MF: (laughs) Uh, I wrote an article about retiring. 

GM: So was that just marketing?
MF: I was on Twitter for about a year saying this was my last year in comedy and I had a hashtag. I was joking around. I didn't know that someone from the Star was following me and they said, 'Do you want to write about your retirement?' And I had not had a drop of press in 10 years of comedy. The first article I was going to get was about my retirement, so I thought I can't not write it! Just for the story alone. But if you really read it, it kind of says I have a gig next week. I was just frustrated at the time. I was doing shows that I shouldn't have been doing. I'm not a one-nighter, northern Ontario kind of comic that can just do it to make money. I kinda gotta like doing it, I realized. So these shows would beat me down. And once I dropped the shows I didn't want to do, and just started doing comedy when I wanted to do it, then my career kind of took off.

GM: So you weren't lying: you retired from doing shows you didn't want to do.
MF: I did. I retired from a certain way of doing comedy. I kind of reinvented what I wanted to be and what I wanted to do.

GM: What kind of reaction did you get when people saw you back on stage? Were they angry or confused?
MF: Comics were livid. Comics are still livid. Some comics are really mad. Because, I mean, that year I started on Mr. D, I did Craig Ferguson. It was a really good year that I retired.

GM: Retiring has been very good for your career.
MF: Yeah! I suggest it to anyone: retire, it really brings in the work. I used to say that and comics would get so mad. I understand where they're coming from. They're like, 'We're trudging away and we're not giving up and we're committed to it.' And I said I'm not giving up, either. If you read the article...

GM: I read it at the time.
MF: To me, it just sounds like someone upset but still going to continue being a comic. And the funny thing is, comedy's taken a real turn overall and everything I was bitching about in that article has kind of come full circle. You don't hear Dane Cook very much. And you hear all about Louis C.K. and Zach Galifianakis. At the time I wrote that article, Dane Cook was one of the biggest comics out there and nobody was talking about Louis C.K. and nobody was talking about Zach Galifianakis and it was driving me nuts because those guys were great.

GM: And now they're running the roost.
MF: Yeah. That kind of comedy has come full circle and it's become almost mainstream.

GM: They're now the comedy superstars. Before it was Dane Cook playing arenas; now the Oddball Tour is playing in front of 15,000 people.
MF: Yeah, which is great. Because to me, I just feel they deserve it more.

GM: You were on Ferguson a couple times. Do you play the States much?
MF: No. The only time I've played the States is when I did Ferguson and I did John Oliver's New York Standup Show. So that's why in life I always say to all Canadian comics: Just go down there and do the late night TV shows. Don't bother working in the trenches. (laughs) No, I've been very fortunate that way. But no, I haven't done much in the States.

GM: It was great to hear Craig Ferguson give your credits when he brought you on stage: "You can see him on Mr. D on CBC" or "Joke and Choke on CTV". Everyone in the States must have been wondering what they were all about.
MF: I kind of put those in in hopes they would say them, and he did. I truly would love to just stay here. But we'll see if that happens.

GM: But the audiences are just smaller here.
MF: Yeah, everything's kind of smaller here. There's not as much opportunity. And man, there's an explosion of comedy in the States with Comedy Central snapping up everybody. It's impressive. It's pretty great to see that they put Key & Peele on and that was a hit, and then they thought, 'Oh, let's try it again.' And now you have Nick Kroll, you have Amy Schumer, you have @midnight. They've become like a huge network. I wish our Comedy Network would figure out that if you make stuff, people will come.

GM: What's the problem in Canada when there's this huge explosion of comedy?
MF: They're just buying all that. And then guys like Nathan Fielder, who were here, go down there and make a massive television show that could have been made here.

GM: You worked on the Jon Dore show and he's gone on to big things in the States.
MF: Yup. We did two seasons. Our ratings were at their highest. He had just been nominated for Variety's Top 10 Comics to Watch. And it was cancelled.

GM: Was it really cancelled or did he just end it?
MF: No, it was cancelled. We would have done a third.

GM: That was the most original Canadian show I've ever seen.
MF: It was great. And I think we were just getting our legs. He's such a kind and talented man. I think he would have just started making it better and better and better.

GM: I know there's the Joke and Choke, but you are looking at other vehicles for yourself?
MF: I'm pitching stuff right now so who knows? But I'm working at it. I learned so much from Jon and I learned so much working on Mr. D. But I wasn't really ready to pitch. I know a lot of guys pitched when they were young. I'm a slow burn. So I'm trying now. We'll see what happens.

GM: A lot of people pitch when they're young and, as you were saying before, they're not as good as they're going to be. And maybe even not that good at all, all things considered.
MF: It's the Comedy Now syndrome.

GM: With the laugh track.
MF: Yeah, and the bright lights and orange background. They would give those to people that weren't ready. I did one and I hate that it's out there.

GM: How long into your career were you?
MF: It was 2006. So about eight years ago. I wasn't ready to do a half-hour special on television, not the way Comedy Central half-hours are done. I'd kill to do a half-hour comedy special in Canada now. But we don't have them. Yeah, so they would give them really early when none of us were ready because they'd just need to make them. I think it was 172 different comics had a half-hour special. Where are they now? They couldn't have been ready.

GM: But it's impossible to turn down if they offer you one.
MF: It was at the time, it really was. And the few guys I saw do it, did it and benefitted from saying no. There's something to be learned, too, later in life. Like, it's okay to say no.

GM: But you don't know where you're going to be five years down the road.
MF: No, you don't.

GM: As an independent comic, are there enough clubs around the country for you to perform in?
MF: I have not missed not being with Yuk's one day. I thought I would. In between the clubs that I work, I book my own shows now and luckily people are showing up. I was terrified they wouldn't but I'm developing enough of a following that I can pop into a city once a year and put on something. It's not massive. I'm not selling out 3000-seat theatres, but it's been great. I've enjoyed this year-and-a-half being away from them so much. I have more control over my career, whereas being with Yuk's, you're a hamburger. They used to say that to us: "People go to McDonald's for the hamburgers. They don't care what kind of hamburger."

GM: They care after the fact when it doesn't sit well in their stomach.
MF: (laughs) Yeah, exactly. I love the MIX. I walked in the first time and saw two big guys standing at the door. I was like, 'I love this club!'

GM: They throw people out, if need be.
MF: They throw people out! What a novel idea! And then the people learn that's not what it's about. Yeah, I love that club. I have so much respect for that club. I've only played it once so I hope I'm not speaking too soon, but I love that club. They treated me with such respect. It was amazing. Good people.

GM: I know in your "retirement" you talked about the drunk crowds and heckling. Do you have much of a problem with that element still?
MF: I don't fight it as much. And I don't find it happens as much with the act. I'm kinda the comic I am now. Another thing, too, is that I'm doing a lot of shows that I'm booking myself. People don't show up to get angry at something they're coming to see. It's a great thing about developing an audience. Nobody goes, 'I wanna go see Jerry Seinfeld and wreck it!' Whereas someone stumbling in at their stagette sitting front row going, 'Make the show about me!', that's a whole different ballgame.

GM: You telling your Twitter followers to promote Canadian comics. Who do you want to promote? Who's your favourite Canadian comic?
MF: Jon Dore's my favourite Canadian comic, period. But he's in the States.

GM: So it's got to be Canadian comics in Canada?
MF: No, no, no, no. As long as they're Canadian, I don't care. I've been watching this new crop of American comics come up, and if you watch Twitter, all of them support each other. It's insane. If someone has a new album, they all tweet about it. If someone has a new special, they all tweet about it. They don't even just retweet; they make a whole new tweet.

GM: That takes a lot of effort!
MF: I know! Like a couple minutes! Whereas here, we're not even doing it. It was a little bit of 'Come on, guys!' But even this morning, it was trending in Canada. It doesn't take much to utilize the tools that are at our disposal. We use social media and promote ourselves.

GM: But in the States, the American comics have more of a presence if they're promoting each others' albums or specials.
MF: Yeah, they have a bit more presence on TV but I can tell you mainstream people probably didn't know who Chelsea Peretti was last week. She's great but I can say that.

GM: But that's because she has a Netflix special.
MF: If we slowly create something here, it's better than nothing. Everybody's like, 'What's the point? What are we going to get to, five people?' Yeah, that's five people. It's the stupidest thing I like to say but every person is a person. You can't have a hundred people without one.

GM: Hey, that's deep. Okay, here's one: Who's the best Canadian comic who the mainstream don't know about?
MF: Graham Chittenden. Graham Chittenden is pretty bang-on, writing good stuff, working hard. For oddballs, you got your Tim Gilbert. Graham just did the east coast tour with Just For Laughs and he's been opening for Gerry on Gerry's tour, as well. He's just got really, really funny stuff. And it's unlike mine so that makes it even truer, I don't know why. For me to go, 'Oh, I love Jon Dore,' it's like, 'Oh yeah, because you learn from him, you emulate him.' But for a comic to like a different style... Anyway, I'll shut up.

GM: This has been great.
MF: Thank you. I wasn't very funny but at least you got me in a talkative mood.

GM: Sometimes you're not so talkative?
MF: You were great, by the way. I'm not very good at these. But I've had a lot of people in Canada call me and go, 'Hey, okay, Mike Forward...' You know? Or 'So you did commercials. How was that?' You said nice, informative, lovely questions.

GM: Hey, you have a podcast.
MF: I do. The Mark Forward Podcast.

GM: How did you come up with that name?
MF: Well, my dad took his penis...

GM: How long have you been doing that?
MF: We're coming up on two years. We're approaching our 100th episode. We're about 23 away. Then we're going to retire.

GM: Is it going to be another fake retirement?
MF: Probably.

Lee Camp

"There's not a lot of comedians doing political comedy to begin with, and the kind of the full-throated activist political comedy that I do is incredibly rare."

– Lee Camp

Guy MacPherson: Thanks for calling back on a landline. My pet peeve is phone interviews with someone on a cell phone. It's always cutting out. 
Lee Camp: Luckily there are landlines at the office. For years now I haven't had a landline and it's always a disaster.

GM: We spoke two years ago when you were in Vancouver.
LC: Yeah, about that. Yeah, I remember that interview. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

GM: You're still rabble-rousing, I see.
LC: I'm trying. Doing my best.

GM: Is the office you're calling from for your show?
LC: Yeah, we tape in DC so I'm here pretty much all the time now, about three blocks from the White House.

GM: That's your home anyway, isn't it?
LC: Well, I've been in New York City for the past 12 years. I grew up outside of DC until I was 8, then the rest of the time in Richmond, Virginia.

GM: Do you call what you're doing 'reporting' even though it's comedy?
LC: I guess, if you would say Jon Stewart and John Oliver are reporting. It's in that same way. I mean, sometimes, and more so recently, we even do our original reporting so we go and get information about protests and aren't even quoting some of the news sources so I definitely feel like a reporter during those times.

GM: So the show, Redacted Tonight, is a multi-camera show, you've got an audience, it's on once a week, but your staff isn't quite as big as the Comedy Central or HBO guys, is it?
LC: It's a real, professional shoot in a studio. We have a small live audience because that's all the studio will hold – about 20 people in our live audience. I think our show is very good and is going after some really important issues that don't get covered anywhere else. And to be able to do it on such a small staff – we're talking five people that work on the show all week, and I'm the head writer, too, so I do probably 70 percent of the writing – to be able to put out this product – we're 23 episodes in – with such a small staff, I'm pretty proud of that.

GM: A half-hour show!
LC: Yeah, and unlike some of the other networks, we're 26-and-a-half minutes, as opposed to a 22-minute show on most networks.

GM: How are you finding time to get out and tour?
LC: I'm finding very little time, as a matter of fact. But I go on weekends mainly. I can get away on an occasional Friday. You'll notice I'm only in Vancouver on Friday and Saturday. I can't do the Thursday or Sunday.

GM: So you just fly cross-country and get in on the Friday?
LC: Yeah. Luckily I'm gaining time with the time zones, but yeah, I leave early Friday, get in and do the two shows.

GM: Will your show take a hiatus?
LC: We get two weeks off around the holidays. Unlike most networks, there's no seasons since this is a news channel. So we pretty much go 50 weeks a year.

GM: Tell me about RT America. What is that? It's not Redacted Tonight America.
LC: (laughs) No, we're only one program on the network. RT in general, like RT International, is Russian Television. Like the BBC is for Britain or I guess CBC is in Canada. But their American company is all American programming. As on some other news networks, there's a difference between the opinion side of things and the news side. The news channel, I don't have anything to do with. With my show, I get to basically do what I want. There are other great shows on this network, like Larry King is here and Abby Martin is really popular, Tom Hartman is a longtime really respected progressive voice. So there's some great programming on here.

GM: You could do what you want. Could you do 26 minutes making fun of Putin?
LC: (laughs) Maybe not. Here's the other thing: our show's not live. We tape Thursday nights so if I went on and just railed against RT for 26 minutes, something tells me they wouldn't air the episode. But really I think it's more of the case of they pick what's going to be right for their network. I did 320 episodes of Moment of Clarity on YouTube, which is my web series, and I had no stipulations from anyone. I owned it, I made it, I wrote it. And I don't know that I ever mentioned Russia throughout those 320 episodes. Not out of any reasoning, it's just not my wheelhouse. I don't live there, I've never been there. Really, my stuff is about America and America's influence around the world. I'd be remiss to think that they didn't want what I was doing. So it's like on MSNBC, I would argue they are picking Obama apology reporters. They're going to pick the people that think the Democrats are always right and never do anything wrong and Republicans are always wrong. They're going to pick people within a certain realm. I think I get phenomenal freedom. Far more freedom than I'd get at any other network because there's no corporate advertisers on RT, which means I get to rail against all the corporations, which I feel are what truly is impacting our lives on daily basis. I don't actually think Russia is impacting American lives on a daily basis, whereas Walmart and Monsanto and Exxon Mobile certainly are.

GM: Just a point of clarification: You said you couldn't rail against RT for half an hour. Are they connected to the government?
LC: Like BBC or I assume CBC. They're funded by the Russian government.

GM: Yeah, but there are shows on CBC that make fun of Stephen Harper. And I'm sure there are shows in England that make fun of their leader. I'm just wondering about the connection.
LC: Well, I can't speak for the other shows; I can just speak for my show. I mean, they've never said to me never mention Putin, if that's what you're asking. I have a tremendous amount of freedom here.

GM: Did you ever try to get on The Daily Show? You seem like a natural fit.
LC: I did apply as a writer there once and I was friendly with John Oliver. I know that he said I was in the top 10 so I got close to becoming a writer there once. But no, I didn't try that hard. I never went on auditions for them or anything. But I actually don't think I'd be a natural fit because, like I was saying before, a lot of my comedy goes after the corporations that in my opinion largely control our politicians and are impacting our lives, and that's not really what Daily Show does. That's not to say Daily Show is constantly pulling punches; I don't actually think I'm a perfect fit for Daily Show.

GM: Certainly more than a lot of people.
LC: Yeah, more than a lot of other comedians. There's not a lot of comedians doing political comedy to begin with, and the kind of the full-throated activist political comedy that I do is incredibly rare. So in a lot of ways, it seems like I would have been great for that show but I'd kind of given up on the idea of even being on television, at least with my own show because nowhere with advertisers wants to have me. So to find a channel without advertisers is incredibly lucky. The only other show that I'd say even comes close to hitting the topics that we do is John Oliver's show and you'll notice, again, a channel without advertisers, HBO.

GM: There must be some corporation that you're more sympathetic to.
LC: I mean, there are environmental corporations and things like that. There are also good corporations like Ben & Jerry's fights really hard to support things like Occupy and get GMOs out of their food. So sure, there can be great corporate leaders. There's multiple reasons for this. One reason – and I discuss these in my newer comedy special, We Are Nothing – that one reason you end up with this system is because the stock market rewards hostile, profit-driven takeovers. That kind of thing. If Ben & Jerry's announces they're not going to use GMO foods or whatever, it generally doesn't reward their stock. Like if a company announces they're giving away free AIDS medication, it doesn't really help their stock. What helps their stock is announcing that they're going to hostilely take over another company. Or prison stocks go up when we announce we're going to put poor people in jail. That's when the stocks go up. So we have a system that rewards the worst type of behaviour. And then on top of that, obviously corporations are not democratic so the board on a corporation is almost exclusively people that are impressively profit-driven, sometimes to sociopathic levels. I have a joke where I say, 'You know who gets to those boards of the most powerful corporations? It's not the vegan who lets people merge in front of him in traffic. That's not the guy.'

GM: You're a political comic, but it's more of a cultural critic.
LC: Cultural commentary, absolutely. I actually have never liked the term 'political comedian' because a) I think it brings to mind somebody who's going to make Barak Obama and Mitch McConnell jokes all day long, which is not what I do at all. My last comedy hour, I think I maybe had one mention of Obama. And then secondly, it seems to exclude great cultural commentary comedians like Chris Rock and many others, sometimes Louis C.K., which, I wouldn't call them political comedians but I absolutely think they have political stances on things and very informed opinions on a lot of the things impacting our lives.

GM: I know comedy is your first love. Are you ever tempted to get more politically involved than you already are?
LC: I've never had any desire to run for anything but I am politically involved in the sense of protests and various organizations. The Green party here in the US has a shadow cabinet, a fake cabinet that basically says what it would do if it were in power. And I am the commissioner of Comedic Arts on the shadow cabinet. If they were actually in power, I might actually have a position. But I'm very involved in protests and was at the first night of Occupy, which I'm sure we talked about last time I saw you, and ended up touring a dozen different Occupy encampments. I'm politically active that way, I'm just not running for office anytime soon.

GM: You're young still. That might come.
LC: (laughs) Maybe, if we ever get to a system where the amount of money you have is not the decider.

GM: What's your take on Russell Brand? He's getting really political these days.
LC: Very much so. I think he's made a really impressive turn. He's speaking everything I'm saying as far as I can tell. We have some mutual friends who do some great work on just how much money has been amassed in the top .1 percent. I start reading his new book and he's quoting the same studies that I've covered on our show. So we're very much aligned. You rarely, even in political comedians, even in comedians that seem to be going after a lot of the stuff, see people railing against the consumerist culture and the influence of advertising and the false desires we all seem to have fallen under for plastic goods and craptastic meaningless objects, and he seems to be doing that. I don't know him personally but I think he's doing something very impressive.

GM: He's been in movies and is more of a celebrity. Do you feel yourself screaming, 'Hey! I've been talking about this, too!'?
LC: That's tough with him but especially with John Oliver's show, because John Oliver, who I think is one of the best comedians I've ever had the privilege to work with, has multi-million-dollar advertising, I'm sure, with HBO, pushing his show out there, and we're on each others' footsteps, in terms of the topics. Sometimes I get to something two weeks before he does, sometimes he gets to it two weeks before I do. I'm not watching everything he does, but I know, for example, we covered civil forfeiture, which is in the US the police will just grab things like your house and say it's not yours anymore because they witnessed a crime on the front yard of it. And then you are in the position of proving that your house had nothing to do with the crime. And they actually go to court against your house, not against you. It's like the State against the property of. It's ridiculous. We did a whole piece on it and then two weeks later he did a piece on it. So it kinda sucks when you have a larger channel and a larger outlet and you're like, 'We just did that! That was our thing!' But the nice thing is that they're such important issues, I'm just happy to see people talking about them.

GM: Like John Oliver and Russell Brand, you need to get a British accent. Maybe that'll do it.
LC: Maybe it is. A British accent makes all the difference. People don't want to hear a crass American yelling this stuff.

GM: Does your show put out smaller chunks of video that everyone can share?
LC: Absolutely. Actually, I think more of ours is online because everything we do online as well as TV. We cut all ours up and upload them. They're all at youtube.com/redactedtonight. They're all on YouTube so it's just a matter of getting them out there.

GM: I watched the Howard Zinn documentary. Did you see that?
LC: Can't Be Neutral on a Moving Train?

GM: I forget the name of it. It was on Netflix.
LC: That might be the one. I watched it a while back.

GM: I know he's a hero of yours.
LC: Yeah, a really impressive guy. It was sad to lose him because there's only so many people speaking up like that. Now that Noam Chomsky's getting older, I guess it goes to Chris Hedges and a few others. We've gotta have those intellectuals that are doing all the research.

GM: Generally we think of older people getting more conservative. Those guys didn't. Or maybe they did in their own ways, but not in any noticeable political ways. You're still young, but in any area of your life, are you getting more conservative?
LC: I don't know. I don't think I'm getting more conservative at all. I think I am starting to understand the people that kinda can't handle it – and that's not meant to be said in an insulting way – and spend a lot more time on escapism. That doesn't mean I encourage it but I understand that this can cause burnout pretty quickly, worrying about these issues, worrying about the world. I'm lucky that I have comedy as an outlet because I think if I were studying these things with a straight face it would be pretty daunting. So I do understand that. I also wonder whether the getting conservative as you get older might be changing a little bit because, in the case of my father, and I think some other people, too, the older generations are now worried about the planet that's going to be left for their kids. Like, will there actually be a livable planet and how grim are things going to get if we destroy all our crops and use up all our water with fracking and various other things going on. My dad has gone from very middle of the road, voting on either side of the aisle, to thinking that his generation has really screwed up the planet and we need to start worrying about fifty years from now rather than just exploiting all the resources by five years from now.

GM: I used to devour the news. But probably for the last ten years, I just avoid it at all cost. I figure I'll hear what's important because everyone's talking about it. It's just too damn depressing.
LC: Part of it is laughter. That hopefully makes it more digestible and we also cover a lot of protests and things like that to try and show you're not alone in giving a shit about these things. I think a lot of people see these horrible things going on and they're like, I'm really upset about them but nobody's doing anything about them and I can't do anything about them so they just give up. I'd say that's another defining characteristic of our show from any other comedy news that I've seen is that we really try and feature activists and protests and people standing up and making a difference.

GM: There's got to be a difference in protesters. You can't support them all.
LC: There's plenty of protesters I disagree with. I mean, there's protesters on the right wing who I think have lost their mind. I think I say in my act – I can't remember which album it was – that I'd rather people violently disagree with me than be apathetic because apathy is just really tough to deal with. You can't even have a conversation with someone who's truly apathetic. I'd rather someone be wrong and passionate. I'm kinda sick of ironic detachment and apathy. I also have given out buttons that say "Punch apathy in the dick."

GM: Your standup has to be constantly changing, which must be hard. Although I guess some issues continue for years and years.
LC: Yeah, my act is always growing and changing. Luckily it is cultural commentary so a lot of the things I discuss don't really change, at least for now. I would love for them to change, but our obsession with products and materialism and manipulation by advertisers and those type of things, that's not going anywhere. So I'm actually impressed that of my special two years ago, probably 75 percent of it I could perform right now and people wouldn't know the difference.

GM: I guess you're right because if you think 20 years ago Bill Hicks was talking about things that are still relevant.
LC: Not only does it still stand up, but it's creepy that he's talking about the first Iraq war and everything holds true for the second Iraq war.

GM: Do you hear from audience members at your standup whose minds you've opened?
LC: Yeah, I do. I get a lot of emails. When I do get down about the state of the world, those kind of things really perk me up, like so many emails of people just saying that I kinda woke them up and they didn't realize what was really going on in the world and now they're starting to get it. And then there's other people that have had tough times in their own personal lives and something about the comedy I was doing really gave them a reason to keep going and a reason to keep fighting. Those type of emails are incredibly moving and remind me why I do what I do outside of all the standard laughter and fanfare.

GM: I would imagine it might be more gratifying changing someone's mind rather than confirming it or helping them with their arguments.
LC: Yeah, that is incredibly gratifying. It's more rare these days because I feel like a lot of seem to put more weight on just sticking with your beliefs than taking in new information and changing your mind. But one fan I can think of specifically was a fan way back ten years ago when I was performing in colleges and not doing any political material. She was right wing but back then I wasn't doing politics so it didn't matter. Then I started putting more politics into my act and she became more and more disenchanted with me because I was left wing and she's right wing. Then five years later she ultimately realized she was wrong and became left wing, or at least more awake about issues, and now is back to being a fan. So she's gone through all the iterations.

GM: It's funny how difficult it can be of someone's comedy if you disagree with them at a root level. I see Dennis Miller's standup and as much as I loathe most of his politics, some things I can see as really great crafted jokes. But it's hard to separate that.
LC: Oh, sure. He is a phenomenally skilled comedian so just because he's become bat-shit crazy doesn't mean he stops being funny to some degree. He was kind of pivotal to me, or at least really important, a real inspiration to me, when I was getting into comedy and I would listen to his album from 1984 when you couldn't really tell politically which side he was on. He would insult both sides and his stuff was just brilliant. And I can't even watch him nowadays. But I think there is a little difference between just disagreeing with a comedian and disagreeing with a comedian because they are a very privileged person. I mean, with Dennis Miller, we're talking an educated white male who is a millionaire likely. And he is heaping his ire down on the poor and the struggling. So watching that can really be uncomfortable, I feel like, if you disagree with him. Whereas, I'm actually, when I'm at comedy clubs obviously there's going to be some right wingers in the audience who didn't know what they were coming to, just came to a comedy show, and most of them could enjoy about 70 percent, 80 percent of my act. I think it's okay if you disagree with a comic a little more than it's okay if you both disagree with a comic and the comic is a person of privilege trashing people of non-privilege.

GM: When you're talking about politics, will you take on Obama as well as the Republicans?
LC: Yeah. And the reason I do that is because I feel in the American system, the Democrats and Republicans are not a right and left wing. Both of them are pro-corporate, pro-Wall Street parties that actually represent a 10 percent difference, a very small angle difference, in terms of view of the world and of America. So by saying I'm taking on both sides, I'm taking on the two corporate parties. I think we've got to learn to think outside of that because either way, you could get Democrats in office or you get Republicans in office, you're not going to change the path we're on unless some very different breed of Democrat or Republican were to appear. That's the flaw in this ridiculous party system we have. I probably agree more often with Rand Paul, a quote-unquote Republican, than I do with a lot of the Democrats and it's because these parties don't really mean anything anymore. All they mean is that you're taking corporate money in order to get elected. In the election we had this week, congress has roughly a 10 percent approval rating and 96 percent re-election rate. That's what just happened in this last election. So how could that possibly happen? It's because people are just voting for the party that they think will fix things, but the parties aren't actually saying anything that different.

GM: Of the two, 1a and 1b, one is better because of social issues.
LC: Yeah. That's the thing. But I wonder whether those issues could just be used to get us down a very horrible path. Because you vote with the guy who is good with gay marriage and good with women's rights and meanwhile we're still going off a cliff. So I'm not saying that voting for them doesn't achieve something or doesn't have any impact; I'm just saying as long as the conversation is about I'm going to vote for them because they agree with gay marriage, well yeah but our planet won't sustain much longer. I mean, our planet will be fine but the humans will be dead.

GM: Do you worry about the future? Or do you think things will work out? And is it hard to stay funny with that mindset?
LC: I don't think I find it hard to stay funny because I think I desperately need to stay funny or else things become too grim. But that being said, I both think that we're at a pivotal time for our species because things could get very bad if we make the wrong decisions right now but I also am very optimistic in the sense that I think the internet age is changing everything and hopefully we'll keep net neutrality. People are awakening at a speed that you've never seen before. It's unbelievable how quickly people are becoming informed and opinions are changing. Just as two examples, gay marriage went from whatever it was – let's say somewhere between 60 and 80 percent disapproval in the late 80s and early 90s – to full-scale approval. I mean, it's tough to find people that don't think gay people are entitled to their own happiness. And that happened over a span of twenty years or something, which is phenomenally fast to completely change people's opinion. And you see the same thing with legalizing marijuana. I don't even smoke marijuana but I think it helps a lot of people, it helps a lot of people with illnesses, and it's insane to think it's any more harmful than alcohol when it's a lot less harmful. So you've seen that go from basically 10 percent wanting legalization to 80 or 70 or whatever it is. It's completely reversed. And that happens over, we're talking 15 years. And the reason is because people are becoming informed at a much quicker rate than ever before.

GM: Are you still writing the little throwaway one-liners to intersperse with the heavier stuff?
LC: I am. I need to write some newer ones because I feel like I've been using the old ones for a little too long. But yeah, I think those are important. I think they give people a breather and also if someone in the audience does disagree with whatever point I was just making, it kind of brings them back into the fold. It subconsciously says to them don't worry, we'll come back to a place we can all enjoy.

GM: Do you know anything about the Canadian political scene?
LC: Very little. Obviously I know about Rob Ford. I know that Canada has swung very much right, and that the tar sands is a catastrophe. Those are the main things I know.

GM: It's fallen to one of the worst environmental countries from one of the best.
LC: Right and also you pulled out of Kyoto, right?

GM: Well, Lee, thanks for talking.
LC: It's been great talking to you. And if you end up mentioning it, my video special is available at leecamp.net. It's called We Are Nothing. It's just a recommended donation of five dollars so pretty much pay what you want.

GM: Where was it filmed?
LC: It was a three-camera shoot at Bowery Electric in New York City.