“We're still at a point where I don't care if it's tokenism; we need that tokenism because we've got nothing at the moment, you know? My old manager said to me, 'You know, Steph, don't stress because it's only tokenism until it just isn't anymore.' And that's the honest truth. Once there's some representation, it opens the door for more representation and more visibility. That's kind of my attitude, as well.”
– Steph Tisdell
Guy MacPherson: Where in Australia are you right now?
Steph Tisdell: I'm in Brisbane.
GM: Your home town!
ST: That's right. Actually I'm home for once.
GM: You're coming to Vancouver. Will it be your first time?
ST: I've been to Vancouver once before when I was 14.
GM: What were you doing?
ST: Skiing. We stayed in Vancouver for a bit then we went up to Big White and Sun Peaks.
GM: Look at you.
ST: I know.
GM: You know, I'm from here all my life and I have never skied in my life.
ST: Really?! That's so weird. Have you snowboarded?
GM: Nope.
ST: Just not interested in it?
GM: It's too cold.
ST: (laughs) Fair enough.
GM: And I've never played hockey. And I don't watch it.
ST: Woah.
GM: But you've never performed here, obviously.
ST: Never.
GM: Where outside Australia have you performed?
ST: I've performed in the UK.
GM: You started there, didn't you?
ST: Yeah, pretty much. Started in Scotland, yeah. In Edinburgh.
GM: How did that happen?
ST: I had performed before in Australia a couple of times. And then I moved to Edinburgh and properly started doing comedy. Instead of doing it once or twice a year, I started doing it once or twice a week. I kinda count that as my proper start.
GM: Why did you move there? It wasn't to do comedy.
ST: No, it's just my favourite city in the world. It's just my favourite place and I just thought it was a good opportunity, as well, because I got too scared to do comedy in front of my family and friends, so I just thought, well, this'll work. I had just won a competition so I had a bit of confidence that I might be not terrible at comedy. Since I wanted to move and since I wanted to give comedy a proper try, Edinburgh was my favourite city. And it had the Edinburgh Fringe so I thought I'd tick a few boxes off.
GM: You "might be not terrible".
ST: It's all a confidence game. There's so much confidence in comedy. It's half of the thing in comedy. Half the thing with any sort of performance is having self-belief. Because I'd won a competition, I wanted to give it a shot but just in case I'm terrible, I'd prefer to do it not where my family and friends could see it.
GM: So it's a con game, is it? A confidence game?
ST: It kind of is, yeah. That's the truth, eh?
GM: What year did you start?
ST: Depends what you count as properly starting. I did my first ever gig in 2011 but I started properly, and did more than a gig a year, in April of 2014.
GM: Five years in and I still read that you're an "up-and-comer." When does that stop?
ST: I don't even know when that officially changes. I think I'll keep it up there just in case. In case people are like, 'I don't know who that is.' Well, that's okay, fair enough. I'm just up-and-coming.
GM: You've done some pretty big shows in Australia on some big stages.
ST: I've been pretty lucky, hey? I've done some really cool stuff.
GM: I saw a clip of you at one of the festival galas. You were out there shoeless. Is that how you always perform?
ST: Always. Every single time.
GM: I imagine you still do small rooms, weekly rooms.
ST: Yep. Never wear shoes.
GM: Is that in life, or do you just take them off before you go on stage?
ST: That's just in life. If you're in a restaurant, you have to wear shoes. But 24/7 never wearing shoes unless I have to. That's just how I like to live my life.
GM: Since you were a kid?
ST: Yeah, always. I don't know why but I don't like wearing shoes. I get sore feet when I wear shoes.
GM: In the clip I saw, you didn't even mention it. Do you talk about it on stage?
ST: Oh yeah, always. I have a whole set I go into about having no shoes on. Originally it just felt more comfortable without shoes on onstage and then I realized people thought it was a cultural thing. Sometimes I won't reference it at all and sometimes I'll weave a whole set about it because I have a lot of material about what people think about people who don't wear shoes.
GM: If you saw a white comic on stage with no shoes, you'd go, 'Oh, that person just doesn't wear shoes.' But with you, you're a representative of your people. So this is a thing, I guess: 'They don't wear shoes.'
ST: Exactly. And I think that's really funny. That's half of the joke, as well. It's almost an in-joke with aboriginal people – and I thought white people knew this as well, but apparently they don't – but aboriginal people have really skinny ankles. Aboriginal people call ourselves 'blackfullas'. So I wrote a joke about ankles and it made blackfellas laugh for one reason but it made whitefullas laugh for a completely different reason. And that was really fun for me, as well. It was a very basic, visual thing. It's funny to me to talk about a lack of shoes and then talk about ankles and getting a laugh for completely different reasons with different crowds.
GM: You say 'black fellas'?
ST: Yeah, like 'f-u-double-l-a.'
GM: I can guarantee you you'll wear shoes here in Vancouver.
ST: I know. I'm disappointed about that. I won't on stage, if I can.
GM: But off stage, you'll get cold.
ST: Well I lived in Scotland for a while and used to go around with no shoes on. Not all the time.
GM: Not in the winter.
ST: Oh, God, no. I'm not a fool.
GM: Well, you'll be here in October.
ST: Oh, that's right! It's going to be way colder than I picturing in my head, isn't it?
GM: Sure, it's fall. So we're not just going to talk about shoes the whole time. But you don't have to go out shopping for shoes all the time.
ST: No. I recently had to buy some when I was in Scotland. It's just not the done thing to get around barefoot so I had to make an effort. Now I own more than one pair of shoes so look at me go. I owned one pair for the last ten years or so but now I've got, like, four pairs of shoes.
GM: You're going to have to get a new closet.
ST: I know.
GM: You're one of Australia's funniest indigenous comedians. Are there many?
ST: No, there are not many at all. I think it's slowly widening. People are really interested in hearing different perspectives now. I think it's going to continue to grow. We're very white in Australia. I think people are curious and they want to know instead of getting it wrong. If you're self-researching, it's not quite the same. You don't learn quite the same way. So comedy's a really great way to just break down those barriers, I think, and share a story and experiences without it being quite so confronting.
GM: Do you find that no matter what you talk about – and it doesn't have to be on point about any particular issue – that that is breaking down stereotypes in itself.
ST: Yeah, I guess so. We just have no visibility in Australia and I'm so excited to see it get to a point where aboriginal people can be on the TV not just as an aboriginal person but as just a normal character in everyday life. But I still think we're still in the time where we are needing tokenism. We're still at a point where I don't care if it's tokenism; we need that tokenism because we've got nothing at the moment, you know? My old manager said to me, 'You know, Steph, don't stress because it's only tokenism until it just isn't anymore.' And that's the honest truth. Once there's some representation, it opens the door for more representation and more visibility. That's kind of my attitude, as well.
GM: Are you getting opportunities outside of standup on TV?
ST: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm actually a roving reporter on one of our biggest TV shows. It's called The Project. It's like a funny news kind of thing. It's kind of news but it's news delivered differently. So I go out and do different little stories around Australia. I've also just been cast in a movie that I'm going to be filming as soon as I get back from Canada. And some other things that aren't standup but are comedy-related, I guess.
GM: So you were right: You might be not terrible.
ST: (laughs) That's the hope!
GM: When you go out on a story, are you an issues-based reporter or is it about anything?
ST: Just about anything. I did a story on a small mining town in Australia. One of our mining towns is very misunderstood and there was a big confusion caused by our last election and who won. A lot of people couldn't understand because all the popular polls seemed to point in one direction. So I went out and did a story on what that town is like and why they vote the way they vote and why they're very misunderstood. And I did a story about a guy who does crocodile tours. And we're not doing it anymore but I was meant to be doing a story on the Dunny Derby, which is where people dress up as toilets and run down the beach. Just interesting little things from around Australia. They'll say, 'Are you able to go and do this?' I've been away a lot so I haven't been able to be as regular as had originally planned because I've been overseas.
GM: That's like your manager said, 'It's only tokenism until it's not.' It's just normalizing seeing you on TV doing regular stories.
ST: Yeah, exactly. And it's not indigenous-focussed or anything like that. But I think there's always going to be that element because that's who I am. And I have quite a strong indigenous fan-base as well. It's always going to be empowering for that reason, or at least that's my hope.
GM: Is it a double-edge sword to have this strong indigenous fanbase? Do the fans sometimes try to dictate your message, to drive the agenda?
ST: Yeah, it's really hard. It's very political from both sides, from white and black. You really want to be a good representative for your people so it's really hard but at the same time I listen and I care. Comedy isn't about me. This is not a personal pursuit that I'm on because it's so much bigger than that. If this was just an individual pursuit, if this was just a career like 'I want to be a famous comedian!' or something, I wouldn't love it. But it's not about that; it's about I want to get opportunities; I want to show other people that we can exist on many different platforms. I want to break down stereotypes. It's so much bigger, which means I can keep on loving it and keep on finding that drive and that passion and that force to keep on going.
GM: In your standup, what is the breakdown of issues-related comedy as opposed to general audience stuff?
ST: It's probably 60-40, I reckon. I think it's because you can only speak from your own personal experiences. I can recognize what they had to do with my heritage because that's such a big part of my identity. You always look at your life through the lens of your identity, who you are and what you are. So probably 60-40.
GM: Is your act Australia specific? I assume that when you come to Canada, these issues translate.
ST: Actually, weirdly enough, because I started talking about those issues specifically in Scotland, it's very international. I had to make it more Australia-focussed when I came back. When I started comedy in Australia, I was really scared to talk about my heritage on stage. When I first started comedy, I didn't want people to yell things out; I don't want to be getting gigs that are just based on this. So I only had general material. And soon I got to Scotland and had the sense to talk about those things and realized there were people who had no knowledge to start from so it made me write very internationally and very educationally almost. So by the time I came back to Australia, it was like, how do I make this more focussed on Australia? So weirdly enough, most of my material is not Australia-focussed because it wasn't Australia-focussed during the really formative time of my comedy writing, I guess.
GM: And then you felt safer to talk about those issues back home?
ST: Yeah. It took me a while. I took a long time off comedy when I came back from living in Edinburgh for two years. I was scared of all those things. And then I just found that passion and thought I shouldn't be feeling scared to talk about my life and to make jokes around the things that affect my life. I think I'm just going to push through the fears that I have so that other people don't have to deal with that, so it's just normal to talk about what it's like being an aboriginal woman in today's society. Most people seem to think everything's done and dusted and there's no issues. There are, actually. There's a lot.
GM: Do you experience more racism in everyday society or in the comedy circuit?
ST: I'd say probably in everyday society. It's really interesting doing gigs internationally or doing gigs in bigger cities it's okay to talk about those things. When you do them in smaller towns or when you're just kinda getting around in an aboriginal t-shirt, sometimes you get looks or people talk differently to me. If you take a particular stance on a conversation that you overhear, or something like that, that's when it's hardest. That's just everyday life. So you just use various experiences and turn them into the funny thing and just try to educate them, I guess. That's my biggest thing: I just want to educate people. To me, the best place for comedy is there's a lot of ignorance in Australia and I don't think people even realize or recognize when they're being inappropriate or when they're saying things that are racist or ignorant. It's funny just to point it out to people and then they kind of laugh and go, 'Oh yeah, I didn't even think about that.' I had a friend of mine say, 'We were going to save up and get you some shoes. We just assumed you were poor and aboriginal people don't often wear shoes.' I was like, 'I have no idea why you would think that. I'm not struggling; I just don't like wearing shoes.' The idea that they both thought that I would be poor because I'm aboriginal and that I wouldn't wear shoes because I'm aboriginal was like, how do you get by every day thinking that this is what people are like?! It's just very ignorant. And if you can turn that into a joke and just show a mirror to them to show how ridiculous that way of thinking is, then they're laughing but learning.
GM: And you're not necessarily lambasting them for their ignorance.
ST: Exactly, exactly. A big focus, especially on my show, is comparing this idea of this really insidious, this bubbling in ignorance from people and fear versus people who are overtly racist or policies that completely miss the mark. You kinda say I feel like we're moving in the right direction that we're feeling all of this guilt. It's stepping in the right direction but if we're not doing anything about that guilt, it's actually just causing more division. So it's looking at various different examples of what that looks like or what that means. The humour is comparing those two together.
GM: It's funny, in that clip I saw, it never even crossed my mind that she can't afford to wear shoes. And I've seen enough bands with drummers or guitar players who go shoeless. I just assume that's just their choice.
ST: But that's what I mean. Australia's very backwards. For some reason, there's all this fear and secrecy around aboriginal people. I don't really understand where it comes from, but people are really scared to ask questions. It's just bizarre. I have a joke about it where I say I think the Australian government treats black fullas much like you would your finer set of silverware; if you've got special guests or international visitors, shine it up and show it off, but otherwise just lock it up. That's kind of exactly what Australians like. We've got really high incarceration rates but the only insight Australians have into aboriginal culture is the traditional dance they see on very special occasions. Even things like slang or how we like to talk or how much family means to us and that kind of stuff, people have no idea. They don't know anything about tribes or language or anything like that. It's like they're afraid to ask those questions so there's just a lot of bizarre guessing and filling in the gaps but it's quite interesting and actually very funny.
GM: A lot of Aussie and Brit comics work Fringe festivals, one-person shows. Is that because there are fewer clubs? Do you work clubs as well? Are they different acts?
ST: I work clubs. I really like doing a full show. I really like the feeling of putting a full show together. I really like doing concept shows. My last festival show was called The Pyramid and it was all about hierarchies and power structures. Baby Bill is all about linguistics and what's in a name and all of that sort of stuff. So I do clubs and stuff. I've always got a strong 15 or 20 minutes but I really like just playing around with a couple of different concepts and inviting the audience to see a really different side of you. I think that's what it's all about, that exploration. And I think it's a big part of Australian comedy especially, and obviously Canada's the same and the States which are so massive, where if you don't live in the major cities where all the comedy happens every night and you can make a good living from it, which it doesn't in Brisbane, it's way more fun to write a full show and then just have a strong 15 minutes that you can travel around Australia with.
GM: Is it the same feel? Still standup, just longer form?
ST: It's got a bit more of a narrative. I really like the vulnerability aspect of comedy. It's a bizarre art form because you have to be very transparent and vulnerable and you have to invite your audience into your life and expose yourself to an extent. I think when it comes to a long form show that's especially show because it's a show, it's not just standup. You want to give somebody a show and you want to invite them in for the message. If somebody's sitting with you for an hour, you want to show them a bit more depth to you and reveal some stuff. That's what I like about it, anyway.
GM: Growing up in Brisbane, and not "on country" – and that means what? In the country?
ST: No, no, no. It means not where my cultural home is.
GM: Here we have reservations. Is that what you mean?
ST: Sort of. For me, it would be on my ancestral home, where my tribe's from.
GM: What did your parents do?
ST: My parents owned an engineering company that provided very specialized irrigation and pumping stuff for big mine.
GM: You are this aboriginal woman in Brisbane. Did your fellow Djinji(?) look at you as one of 'them', and the people from Brisbane look at you as you're one of 'them'? Were you stuck in the middle? Did you experience racism from both sides?
ST: A hundred percent. Always. It's one of those things. I think there's a feeling of, you've turned your back on us or where you're from by moving away, but you never quite fit in because I'm not the standard person from Brisbane. And this isn't my country. I'm not from Brisbane in that way but I'd be accepted by my black fullas in Brisbane. But it's very political from both sides is the easiest way to put it, I guess.
GM: On the flip side, you have positive experiences from both sides, too.
ST: Absolutely. I've had people say I was scared to try standup as an aboriginal person but now I feel like I can talk about it; I really wanted to talk about these experiences in my life and I was scared that if I said them that people would have a bad reaction, but I don't feel that anymore. Not a lot of positive experiences about people just going, 'I just didn't know any of this stuff and I want to more and I need to educate myself more.' I've got a big thing in the show where I say it's interesting people have a lot of questions. And instead of just asking an aboriginal person those questions, they just fill in the blanks and just avoid it. Like they're so scared of asking the wrong questions that there's just no communication at all. So I say at the end of my show, just talk to somebody who's different to you and ask questions and somebody will tell you if you're being ignorant.
GM: If it comes from a place of honesty, you can sense it.
ST: Exactly. Exactly.
GM: You hate the phrase 'white privilege'?
ST: Yes and no. I think it's a funny phrase. I just think there's a lot of privilege full-stop. But I also just feel like if you've got the time to be ranking privilege, you're probably pretty fucking privileged. I just feel like you can't decide what privilege you have and don't have so formally like that. Just recognize that everybody exists with some privilege. It just bugs me. If you've got the time to be ranking it, then you probably need to assess your privilege. It's a very western phrasing.
GM: Are you saying that all races have various forms of privilege?
ST: Absolutely.
GM: What's the privilege aboriginal Australians have?
ST: Connection to land, family, a really innate ability to be able to make others laugh, a sense of belonging, and unashamedly being able to say this is where I'm from, I'm proud of where I'm from, I want to know everything about where I'm from, that kind of sense of community, that kind of sense of home, and all of the things that come with that, but we're also very in touch with our ancestral backgrounds. That whole thing that comes with thinking deeper about things and reflecting in a slightly different way. All of that stuff. That's a massive privilege. It's something I'm so proud of and so grateful for.
GM: These are different privileges. I guess with the white privilege, the sense of it is you get something financial from it, too, than something deeper like you were talking about.
ST: Exactly. So you can't really rank those things. This is going down a bit of a tangent but I'm actually going to international aid organizations so a lot of the travel I've done has been to very, very remote developing areas in the world. Something I've noticed a lot throughout various different parts of Africa, for example, and this is what bugs me as well as this idea of white supremacy doesn't actually exist within the western world to the same extent it exists within developing countries. Colonialism has happened so recently but there seems to be this understanding that the black people in Africa think that white people are better than them because of what they've been taught and they're just absolutely been taken advantage of to the point where all of the advertising – and this is advertising to people who are black – is by either very light-skinned black people or by white people. It's so bizarre. A lot of those things, like white privilege and stuff like that, it's like you live in a little microcosm and you don't realize that side of that. I think that's why those things bug me, too. It's just so hyper-focussed and hyper-westernized.
GM: You're playing the Transform Cabaret. What can we expect from your portion of the show?
ST: Let's just hope laughs. That's what I hope for! I wanna make people laugh; I wanna make people happy. But from what I've learned, the First Nations people from Canada and aboriginal people in Australia, we have a lot of similarities and I'm so excited to find them out. It might be interesting for First Nations people from Canada to hear about how similar our plights are, but I think it'll be interesting for anybody who kind of just wants to learn about Australia, as well, because it's a part of Australia that we don't hear about a lot internationally. So I hope I can educate a couple of people and make some people laugh.
GM: It's not a TED Talk because there will be laughs.
ST: No.
GM: But you will learn as a byproduct.
ST: I mean, that's the hope, right? We've had great reviews. Lots of people have laughed in the past, so...
GM: If they don't laugh now, it's on them.
ST: That's right, Canada!
GM: Hopefully you have a good time here and you won't be too cold.
ST: That's what I hope. Well, I love the cold so I'm looking forward to it.